Rudder effectiveness

It would seem our resident crosswind expert has withdrawn from the thread and does not wish to quantify the "higher wind speeds" used.

 

25 knots is the crosswind component the handbook states is manageable, with the suggestion to find another runway if there's more xwind. That'd probably be a demonstrated xwind component today, meaning that an experienced pilot who is on top of his game may well get away with a few knots more, but even skilled pilots could get in trouble below said speed on a bad day.

 

That's 12.86 m/s, so already at 10 m/s you're getting close to what the aircraft can handle. Chances are the "higher wind speeds" were simply in excess of what the aircraft can handle and thus the loss of directional control experienced was as it should be.

 

Edit: At 14 m/s (27 knots) it's quite manageable, but there's not much room for error. Sounds about right to me.

 

Cheers,

/Fred

:doh: show me where i claiming to be an expert.so thx for the name calling!

this rudder issue seems to be known by the devs according to this thread.so as this issue obviously does exist,now you tell me how should this not affect crosswind landings?

Happy to oblige!

im speaking about high wind speeds

 

...

 

to your assumption....no, i know how to do crosswind landings.

As for your question, post 33.

Happy to oblige!

 

As for your question, post 33.

how is "i know how do to something" and "i am an expert in" in any way the same?

and no, your post doesnt answer the question at all.

you are just ignoring it.but thats fine.

you probably have also ignored that i mentioned in my first post in this thread, that i have tried this only at the very first days after the release of the plane.since then its been in the hangar.

back then it was hardly possible to stay on the runway at 10m/s from 90°, and at 15m/s it was only possible to stay on the runway with very risky counter nosewheel steering.

and as they didnt mention anything in this regard in the recent patch changelogs, i assumed that this is still the case.

now i have tried crosswind landings again, and they obviously have already changed something fundamental.

now its no problem anymore to stay on the runway with crosswinds of at least 25m/s from 90°.havent tried more yet, but 25m/s from 90° is no problem.

so i was wrong when assuming that the issue to stay on the runway still persists.

still, if/when they further adjust rudder behaviour, it will obviously change the behaviour of the plane in every flight phase i.e. crosswind landings.

And that's what pisses me off in a monumental way. We're being sold a PFM and then you find out these MASSIVE mistakes. The problem is not so much the one particular issue, but the fact that it puts everything else in doubt (FM wise).

btw, the F-15 is a freakshow, but let's keep this on topic.

1 month after bumping my findings & still no answer from ED....the basic dynamics of wind is ignored in some of the so called "professional flight models":doh:

in some of the so called "professional flight models"

Are those still in beta?

And YES, that was an honest question. I'm away from my simming computer until Christmas, so I haven't flown (or bought any new modules) at all lately.

This will get buried but... here's the problem. BST gave the aircraft perfectly acceptable rudder authority. There is plenty of directional maneuverability. The problem is that their flight model does not generate sufficient side force as angle of sideslip increases. (CYβ) The best way to test this is to attempt sustained knife edge flight, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPT6KFi8Srg, and see that it is not possible at that speed of approximately 400 knots.

Are those still in beta? .

A-wella everybody's heard, about the beta

A-wella beta beta beta, the beta is the word

A-Wella don't you know, about the beta

Well everybody knows that the beta is the word

A-wella beta beta b-beta's the word

I will test the new update tomorrow but is FFB fixed and rudder ? yet

Are those still in beta?

 

And YES, that was an honest question. I'm away from my simming computer until Christmas, so I haven't flown (or bought any new modules) at all lately.

I posted those findings 6 months ago, I don't know witch was in beta then. But those problems effect all existing FC3 aircrafts & BT's helicopters, P-51.

BT's helicopters

So what's the problem exactly, insufficient yaw authority or what? Because the last I flew the Huey a couple of months ago, it actually behaved just as expected. There are some flight envelope regions where the tail rotor is inefficient, that is true, but I've heard this is actually realistic so nothing (much) wrong there I'd guess.

A-wella beta beta b-beta's the word

So an honest question begets a BS answer around here nowadays? Righto :doh:

So an honest question begets a BS answer around here nowadays? Righto :doh:

That was no BS, but let me clarify it for you: Yes, it is still a beta.

(p.s. you'll notice the word beta comes up quite a few times in my previous reply, hint hint...)

So what's the problem exactly, insufficient yaw authority or what? Because the last I flew the Huey a couple of months ago, it actually behaved just as expected. There are some flight envelope regions where the tail rotor is inefficient, that is true, but I've heard this is actually realistic so nothing (much) wrong there I'd guess.

See post #54 and this http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122636

Basically wrong IAS in windy conditions.

Basically wrong IAS in windy conditions.

Roger that, thanks.

Yes, it is still a beta.

So there's still hope then I'd guess?

Could be that the FM dll is based on the helicopter FM dll and they have left stuff in there that they shouldn't?

Could be that the FM dll is based on the helicopter FM dll and they have left stuff in there that they shouldn't?

What I am thinking. They produced helicopter FMs and just slapped em on the ED F-15C and the F-86. Then they modified the parameters. Makes sense since a Helo can perform a 360 turn while never deviating flight path2

No. That's not how this works.

:lol:

What I am thinking. They produced helicopter FMs and just slapped em on the ED F-15C and the F-86. Then they modified the parameters. Makes sense since a Helo can perform a 360 turn while never deviating flight path2

Man that is a funny comment the devs wont be impressed with that. Maybe you should try FSX FM for comparison on some of their basic freeware aircraft.

I was thinking more in the lines of helicopter rudder losing authority as speed increases.

Anyway, we'll see with the Mig 15, if it behaves the same way then we'll know that BSTs FM has problems.

Could be that the FM dll is based on the helicopter FM dll and they have left stuff in there that they shouldn't?

Doing that would probably make it harder, not easier to model the aircraft FM.

 

Anyway, we'll see with the Mig 15, if it behaves the same way then we'll know that BSTs FM has problems.

F-15 and F-86 not enough?? :huh:

OK. I maybe missed it, but is there some concrete data about correct behaviour of F-86F? If there isn't, why do you assume that something is wrong?

 

And, F-15 is discussed in another thread.

Ok so if you put it this way, is there any hard data that shows that current behavior is correct?

If all you do is based JUST on incomplete data without a bit of common sense, than I guess you shouldn't have modeled the rudder at all.

FYI, every airplane in the world will do a flat turn, and any RL pilot will confirm this no matter what airplane he/she has flown.

Cofcorpse, I made a comparison video of various DCS aircraft. And there you will see, why people find it hard to belive, that the sabre´s and eagle´s yaw behaviour is supposed to be correct. Watch the turn indicator. The Huey´s, Eagle´s and Sabre´s turn indicator show nearly Zero, when they shouldn´t.

That similar behaviour probably led to the following idea...

What I am thinking. They produced helicopter FMs and just slapped em on the ED F-15C and the F-86. Then they modified the parameters. Makes sense since a Helo can perform a 360 turn while never deviating flight path2

These aircraft turn so slowly that it seems to be incorrect.

The video is not listed in YT.

Fox

p.s. I love the Sabre, and this issue is no showstopper for me. But would be nice if it could be clarified, if this is wrong or not.