Tactics against russian and american modern fighters

Hi all,

I have read some stuff about the Mirage on this forum and my question is if the Mirage stands any chance against a Russian or American modern fighter (SU-27, Mig-29 or F-15) in an engagement and if it does, what tactics are favourable to use then?

some lecture for you which answers your question:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=157030&highlight=mirage+flanker

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187582&highlight=mirage+flanker

(https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156875&highlight=mirage+flanker)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147597&highlight=mirage+flanker

As long as you are not outnumbered and the enemy does not have fox3s (active radar missiles) I would say that, with a good knowledge of your aircraft's BVR capabilities, you are at the same level as the F-15/Su-27/Mig-29.

You can win if they have fox3s but it will be a bit harder. :joystick:

I can go in detail with the tactics i use (and that work for me :D) later if you want ;).

I can go in detail with the tactics i use (and that work for me :D) later if you want ;).

That would be most appreciated if you would. Coming from someone that can fly the plane, but gets shot to buggery every time I play...

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There is an instant action mission called "Missile Combat" or something. If you practice on that until you can destroy all four enemies, you'll find you can fair much better online against 1-2 people... again fox 3 complicates things... I have a video (not a pro video maker, btw) of a sortie on BF against 3 enemies.

Cinematic Video:

Cockpit view:

Hope this helps a little.

Thanks guys! Will be helpful! Summarizing what I have learned is to prevent myself from getting into a distance battle with a Su-27 of F-15. Better mask my presence and try to close in.

@myHelljumper I am very curious for the details of your tactics ;)

In fact it is very simple, no wizard type of flying :

- Get a good SA : Know the situation around you, where are the friendlies, the enemy, the SAMs... this makes the difference between a dead or alive pilot. This is true for all aircrafts but is very important in the 2000. You might want to use a bullseye if you are flying with other pilots.

- Fly at medium-high altitude (20-30 kft) : You can see far, you are fast, you have potential energy, you have a low consumption, you are out of short range SAM harm, your missiles have better range (like twice the range between 5 kft and 25-30kft).

- Don't fly too fast when not engaging : Your consumption will be lower and you will have more time to build your SA and plan ahead (Max range regime in the 2000 is around 85% RPM)

- Plan ahead : know who you will engage, if they are more than you (and fighters ;) ) don't go and face them, you will loose. Turn back and see you can get a better initial situation.

- Allow yourself to burn back : better re-engage latter than being dead now.

- Fire you missiles from ~75% max range( at 25 kft it will be around 14-16nm, also be as fast as possible so your missile start with a lot of energy ) : This missile does not have a high chance to hit but it will put the enemy plane defensive so you can defeat his missile or close in for the max PK shot.

- Crank as soon as you have fired you missile : you will reduce your closing speed and bleed the enemy missile energy. You might also want to go below your target so it won't be able to notch you. They key to win in BVR is to bleed the enemy's missile energy while supporting yours.

- If you are in a bad situation or you think the enemy missile might hit you, Notch : This way you can break the lock and maybe pump or re-engage.

The S530D have a slightly better range than the AIM-7 but a slightly worst range than the R-27ER so you can play their BVR game no problem. The fact that they have more missile won't be of great help for them, if they fire 4 missile at the same time they won't get more energy :D.

Crank : Put your target at the limit of your radar gimbals (just below 60°) so you reduce your closure rate while maintaining lock. If you do it while being fired upon, reverse the crank a few time so the enemy missile loose more energy.

Notch : Put your enemy in your 3-9 line and go below him, this way he will loose lock due to Doppler filtering and his missile will go dumb.

Pump : Turn back and burn to increase the distance between you and the enemy. This is done with the intent to re-engage.

And that's it ;)

There might be people that disagree with what I said but this tactic work for me is SP and MP so it can't be too bad :).

The missile range might be off by a bit but the idea is here. I won't tell you more, I need to keep my little secrets :D

There might be people that disagree with what I said but this tactic work for me is SP and MP so it can't be too bad :).

Very sound advice, the one thing i would add is that energy is everything. At your initial altitude don't be shy with burner and most times i even enter a shallow dive. You want your missile to have as much initial velocity (energy) as possible. Then after launch chop the throttle back to .9 mach (most people would say .8 mach)... this allows you to decrease the closure rate between you and his/her missiles and is a good speed to be at for maneuvering. Also it is a good idea to immediately start thinking defensive and putting the opponent off to your 10:00ish or 2:00ish... again to decrease closure rate, while maintaining a decent velocity.

Very sound advice, the one thing i would add is that energy is everything. At your initial altitude don't be shy with burner and most times i even enter a shallow dive. You want your missile to have as much initial velocity (energy) as possible. Then after launch chop the throttle back to .9 mach (most people would say .8 mach)... this allows you to decrease the closure rate between you and his/her missiles and is a good speed to be at for maneuvering. Also it is a good idea to immediately start thinking defensive and putting the opponent off to your 10:00ish or 2:00ish... again to decrease closure rate, while maintaining a decent velocity.

Yes, I will add it :).

Edit : Added speed advice and crank, notch and pump definitions.

Edit 2 : I just watched your video, you were DAMN lucky :D.

Thanks for the nice explanations! Will give it a try!

Cinematic Video:

At 1'20" this missile should have detonated, well within proximity fuse range !:huh:

At 1'20" this missile should have detonated, well within proximity fuse range !:huh:

Yea lucky sorties make more exciting videos than well executed ones...

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I prefer to play the low sneaky game with the mirage and I often take bvr engagements against fox 3s and win. All you need to do is let them waste their missiles at 10-15 mi, notch, get a shot off at 5, notch, and then you win and have 3 missiles left. If your 530 does not hit then you are merged and are immediately at the advantage of you do not stall out.

In fact it is very simple, no wizard type of flying :

 

- Get a good SA : Know the situation around you, where are the friendlies, the enemy, the SAMs... this makes the difference between a dead or alive pilot. This is true for all aircrafts but is very important in the 2000. You might want to use a bullseye if you are flying with other pilots.

 

- Fly at medium-high altitude (20-30 kft) : You can see far, you are fast, you have potential energy, you have a low consumption, you are out of short range SAM harm, your missiles have better range (like twice the range between 5 kft and 25-30kft).

 

- Don't fly too fast when not engaging : Your consumption will be lower and you will have more time to build your SA and plan ahead (Max range regime in the 2000 is around 85% RPM)

 

- Plan ahead : know who you will engage, if they are more than you (and fighters ;) ) don't go and face them, you will loose. Turn back and see you can get a better initial situation.

 

- Allow yourself to burn back : better re-engage latter than being dead now.

 

- Fire you missiles from ~75% max range( at 25 kft it will be around 14-16nm, also be as fast as possible so your missile start with a lot of energy ) : This missile does not have a high chance to hit but it will put the enemy plane defensive so you can defeat his missile or close in for the max PK shot.

 

- Crank as soon as you have fired you missile : you will reduce your closing speed and bleed the enemy missile energy. You might also want to go below your target so it won't be able to notch you. They key to win in BVR is to bleed the enemy's missile energy while supporting yours.

 

- If you are in a bad situation or you think the enemy missile might hit you, Notch : This way you can break the lock and maybe pump or re-engage.

 

The S530D have a slightly better range than the AIM-7 and slightly worst than the R-27ER so you can play their BVR game no problem. The fact that they have more missile won't be of great help for them, if they fire 4 missile at the same time they won't get more energy :D.

 

Crank : Put your target at the limit of your radar gimbals (just below 60°) so you reduce your closure rate while maintaining lock. If you do it while being fired upon, reverse the crank a few time so the enemy missile loose more energy.

 

Notch : Put your enemy in your 3-9 line and go below him, this way he will loose lock due to Doppler filtering and his missile will go dumb.

 

Pump : Turn back and burn to increase the distance between you and the ennemi. This is done with the intent to re-engage.

 

And that's it ;)

 

 

There might be people that disagree with what I said but this tactic work for me is SP and MP so it can't be too bad :).

 

The missile range might be off by a bit but the idea is here. I won't tell you more, I need to keep my little secrets :D

One comment, the 27ER has longer range than 530D. You probably meant 27R

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English is not my native language, I meant to say that the AIM-7 have a shorter range and the R-27ER have a longer range, maybe the way i wrote it is not understandable.

I will try to edit this sentence so it is clearer :).

The problem isn't only range, but rather speed Vs range.

A Flanker pilot may shoot R-27ER at max range, but it won't be effective if the target maneuvers.

Super 530D has shorter flight time than AIM-7 and R-27ER and so shorter max range, but if you consider speed Vs range it's on par with R-27ER and both above AIM-7M.

But AIM-7 has longer burn time and flight time than Super 530D, and so longer range.

There are basic skills to learn to fight BVR with M-2000C. But these are Fox 1 tactics, and overall it's the same if you play Fox 1 with F-15, MiG 29 or Su 27. You just have to adjust when to shoot and when to go defensive depending on the threat and risk level you are willing to deal with.

If you don't want to play sneaky down in the valley, fly in pair with a wingman and cover each over.

Also try to keep a little energy, speed or altitude, for the end. Due to the 4 pylons you'll probably run out of missiles earlier than F15&Su27 and want to escape if there is more than 1 enemy fighter still in range, being at 200 knots / 1000 feet at this point is an uncomfortable position ;)

Nice one !

If you don’t overdo it the mirage retains energy better in a turning fight. Despite it being fully clickable it also feels easier to fight in. At least to me.

Crank : Put your target at the limit of your radar gimbals (just below 60°)

Wait waaaait... Afaik M2000C radar can even go 95° left and right (+ up and down), or?

Wait waaaait... Afaik M2000C radar can even go 95° left and right (+ up and down), or?

No, the antenna can scan up to 60° left and right, that make for a 120° search cone, AFAIK same as the F-15.

Did you RTFM ? Because the above is well explained in it ;).

No, the antenna can scan up to 60° left and right, that make for a 120° search cone, AFAIK same as the F-15.

 

Did you RTFM ? Because the above is well explained in it ;).

Weird I thought I managed to do 90° in multiplayer some days ago. Just tested it in Singleplayer, here my results:

Target still locked, my heading 166°, target is at 9187 meters which is showing as 30100 feet on top right of radar screen... and this seems to be more than 60° off angle to me... (more like 80° ? )

Singleplayer I meant.

For how much time did you keep the lock ? :)

The radar don't drop your target instantly when it goes out of the search cone, it will keep the target and update its position with the data it had before it exited the search cone, and try to require it when it goes inside the search cone again.

But after some time the lock will drop.

The radar display mode your are using is projection, vertical sides of it represent the extremities of the search cone, that is 60°.

Very useful thread! Especially Helljumpers long post on page 1 !