ECM 2.0

Lockon 2.0

In a related manner, ECM burn-through ranges have been moved significantly out (based on aircraft type) and a 15 second ECM warm-up time has been added to address ECM blinking online.

This is the expected performance of Lockon 2.0 ECM, while an improvement its nowhere near the complexity of how real jammers work and much like Falcon it will be one version of jammer for all aircraft.

My main concern is regarding the 'warmup time' of 15 seconds, obviously this is not a realistic inclusion, its purpose is to eliminate the blinking repetitve on/off procedure to deny a lock online.

What I don't understand is the choice or term of 'warm up', does this mean that when you switch the jammer on you can't turn it off for 15 seconds or vice versa?

I sincerely hope its the later because the thought of not being able to turn off your jammer is a worrying one especially when faced by HOJ shots.

Picture this, your engaging a MiG-29 at 35km, he locks you so you turn on ECM (even though realistically when an STT lock is achieved jamming becomes much harder), the MiG immediately fires an R-77 HOJ and turns and flees. Now you have a bandit going cold giving you an opportunity to take advantage but because your stuck with your jammers on for 15 seconds you can't give chase because the active missile is homing in on you and by the time you can turn off your jammer that missile will reach its autonomous stage and your as good as dead.

This will be a failure in BVR simulation. Please tell me its not true?

I think the warmup time just means you are only allowed to turn it on once every 15 seconds. It wont limit you the ammount of time you want it on, or slow its startup that ammount of time.

Also you dont know if turning on ECM breaks lock instantly in 2.0 anymore. It rests to be seen, but then the software is still being tested.

Having said that, yes there are advantages and disavantages of having it turned on.

This is the expected performance of Lockon 2.0 ECM, while an improvement its nowhere near the complexity of how real jammers work and much like Falcon it will be one version of jammer for all aircraft.

And what FC had was somehow better? I think not.

My main concern is regarding the 'warmup time' of 15 seconds, obviously this is not a realistic inclusion, its purpose is to eliminate the blinking repetitve on/off procedure to deny a lock online.

I sincerely hope its the later because the thought of not being able to turn off your jammer is a worrying one especially when faced by HOJ shots.

The jammer does not emit until the 15 sec cycle is complete after you turn it on. You can turn if off and it will shut off instantly.

Picture this, your engaging a MiG-29 at 35km, he locks you so you turn on ECM (even though realistically when an STT lock is achieved jamming becomes much harder), the MiG immediately fires an R-77 HOJ and turns and flees. Now you have a bandit going cold giving you an opportunity to take advantage but because your stuck with your jammers on for 15 seconds you can't give chase because the active missile is homing in on you and by the time you can turn off your jammer that missile will reach its autonomous stage and your as good as dead.

ouch, I was mistaken

But GG they could take in consideration my idea? only once turned on every 15 seconds But it does so instantly?

So you can blink every 15 sec? ;) No. ;)

The above aside, it won't make a serious difference in operation IMHO. There are other things that need to be focused on at this time.

ouch, I was mistaken

 

But GG they could take in consideration my idea? only once turned on every 15 seconds But it does so isntaly?

you can switch off instatly and prevent from being caught in HOJ if you suspect its happening.

No. I'm not going to sit there and explain the details of it other than to say that a jammer will reduce the Pk compared to a solidly guided weapon. It is meant to deny launch to start with.

Slightly N/A LOFC, but what can you do - EW simulation in /any/ flight sim product is fairly primitive, and there's no getting around it for now.

At any rate, you can turn off your jammer any time you want.

Hmmm, jammers should be turned off by the pilot before burn through is achieved to eliminate HOJ shots fired at that stage when they at their most effective. A pilot turns off his jammer so as not to receive a HOJ shot, what your saying goes totally against that so why not do away with them altogether.

The jammer does not emit until the 15 sec cycle is complete after you turn it on. You can turn if off and it will shut off instantly.

This is good and what I wanted to hear the rest is common knowledge afaik.;)

Ok cool ;)

This is good and what I wanted to hear the rest is common knowledge afaik.;)

Finally I hope there will be end of blinkers. Good move of 15 seconds I think.

Alright, so in order to prohibit "blinking" there's a 15 sec delay or so called "warm-up" of ECM receiver/emitter before it starts jamming, right?!

Now, since things like this need no warming IRL (no cathode ray tubes in Sorbitsya) what do you do with a pilot who starts blinking his ECM during BVR mockup training? Do you beat him in his sleep in the barracks?

.....Do you beat him in his sleep in the barracks?

Tins of Cola and the Occasional Iron in Pillow-Slips used to Work Well......

Now, since things like this need no warming IRL (no cathode ray tubes in Sorbitsya) what do you do with a pilot who starts blinking his ECM during BVR mockup training? Do you beat him in his sleep in the barracks?

I'd imagine that an electronic device designed to disrupt a radar can do it's job quite more effectively if the user does not turn it off while it's doing what it was built to do.

Yeah, you do - for being incompetent.

He can flick the switch on and of all he likes, all that will get him is reduced ECM capability. The jammer operates ON ITS OWN. It deceives the target radar several hundred times a second, and this is exactly what is represented by LO's strobes.

Alright, so in order to prohibit "blinking" there's a 15 sec delay or so called "warm-up" of ECM receiver/emitter before it starts jamming, right?!

 

Now, since things like this need no warming IRL (no cathode ray tubes in Sorbitsya) what do you do with a pilot who starts blinking his ECM during BVR mockup training? Do you beat him in his sleep in the barracks?

In RL the jammer on/off shouldn't break a lock because your actually locking onto a target or strobe and the modern radar should automatically adjust to the situation, the jammer is either deceiving the targets location or trying to trash the lock by itself.

In fact it might prevent y our jammer from successfuly breaking lock by not giving it enough time to execute an interesting technique like range-gate pull-off ... in any case, the EEEEEEE race will be over.

In RL the jammer on/off shouldn't break a lock because your actually locking onto a target or strobe and the modern radar should automatically adjust to the situation, the jammer is either deceiving the targets location or trying to trash the lock by itself.

Now, since things like this need no warming IRL (no cathode ray tubes in Sorbitsya) what do you do with a pilot who starts blinking his ECM during BVR mockup training? Do you beat him in his sleep in the barracks?

IRL, the switch in the cockpit does not cause the ECM system to actually emit, is merely switches on the system. The electronics in the ECM system decide when and what to emit. Nor do they work like a big electronic spotlight when they are emitting, it's far, far more sophisticated than that.

Also NO sim EVER has even come close to modelling how an ECM system actually works nor the effect it has on an aircraft's radar. Of course this is for a very good reason, radar and ECM are two of the most most highly classified system on any aircraft (ECM and IFF are the most protected, radar is close behind). Like many things related to modern military aircraft, those of us in the know simply can't explain exactly how they do work, only say it's not the way it works in sims.

On the other hand those of us NOT in the know but with access to certain knowledge and unburdened with SECRET things can speculate and successfuly at least for simple things ...

And I'm sure you guys will snicker when we get it oh-so-wrong :D

IRL, the switch in the cockpit does not cause the ECM system to actually emit, is merely switches on the system. The electronics in the ECM system decide when and what to emit. Nor do they work like a big electronic spotlight when they are emitting, it's far, far more sophisticated than that.

 

Also NO sim EVER has even come close to modelling how an ECM system actually works nor the effect it has on an aircraft's radar. Of course this is for a very good reason, radar and ECM are two of the most most highly classified system on any aircraft (ECM and IFF are the most protected, radar is close behind). Like many things related to modern military aircraft, those of us in the know simply can't explain exactly how they do work, only say it's not the way it works in sims.

On the other hand those of us NOT in the know but with access to certain knowledge and unburdened with SECRET things can speculate and successfuly at least for simple things ...

 

And I'm sure you guys will snicker when we get it oh-so-wrong :D

I wouldn't say we snicker at all, it's surprising sometimes how close people can get despite not having access to the classified details. At the end of the day, thanks to my job I get to actually know how these things work, and I still think it's all witchcraft.

It really is sometimes :P

And sometimes you find out very surprising things that are like 'well duh' ... case in point was finding out that TEWS in the F-15 will indicate whom its jamming for on the RWR scope. Who would've thought?

I hope at some point a sim (DCS, in fact) will be capable of portraying a more realistic/interesting EW environment, though this is very hard. We don't know what technique generators each jammer uses, though we could know, for example, how to display them - range gate pull offs, crosseyed jamming, blip enhancement (likely used with towed decoys), blinking, range and angles denial, Vc modification, all those techniques are readily available to be read on the internet, but I don't think anyone has really tried to collect them and make them work in a sim. Not that it would be easy, you need to think up an interesting algorithm for it all to pan out well.

Oh, also, I envy you :P

I wouldn't say we snicker at all, it's surprising sometimes how close people can get despite not having access to the classified details. At the end of the day, thanks to my job I get to actually know how these things work, and I still think it's all witchcraft.

One related issue from FC - when someone turns on their jammer, you can see the target bearing on radar, but not range or elevation - I assume this is what happens in real life.

However, when you lock that signal for a HOJ shot, you get a target box (at least in the f15) which allows to asses the approximate altitude of target. This is not realistic is it?

I like the new EW settings , and I'm curious the new burn through range is decided by the target RCS or My radar's power or both are effected?

well you can know the heading and relative elevation with respect to you (since you can "lock" on jamming signal)... this is pure geometry... range or target speed and heading... nope

- Perhaps I should open a new thread or ask this over at FC2.0 thread but since we're discussing new ECM there's this question on countermeasures that keeps pending in my mind. In MAC and FC single flare button press would expend flares in pairs.

1) Can anything be done with it in FC 2.0 so we don't run out ff flares 15 secs after the merge?!

- Heaters performance is reduced in FC2.0, so I understand, wasting ETs if fired without tone but what happend with Mike Sidewinder?!

2) Is AIM-9M range and performance also upgraded with improved capability against IR jammers and flares, less smokey motor and better background discrimination?

Actually yes, it is. What's the problem with putting a target box on it? It's the same as saying 'the emitter is in that direction', just adding one more dimension to it, which the radar can easily do.

One related issue from FC - when someone turns on their jammer, you can see the target bearing on radar, but not range or elevation - I assume this is what happens in real life.

 

However, when you lock that signal for a HOJ shot, you get a target box (at least in the f15) which allows to asses the approximate altitude of target. This is not realistic is it?