DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[Ganesh]

...how many unguided rocket can we put on it? High speed rocket attacks are so fun D

Is the dual launcher usable with rocket pods?

Thanks

 

Fun sure but...

That´s why i´m inter alia concerned about 16 flares

Most of times i´m a Hog driver and my expirience made me realize:

DCS is full of nasty Iglas

 

Whatsoever i´ll end up buying it anyway :D

Edited November 26, 2015 by Ganesh
whatsoever

[Hook47]

His last couple of lines were abit aggressive tbh.... He didn't have to go calling him a Pipe dreaming F-35 pipe dreamer.

 

Aggressive? Oh good grief we are just debating. No one needs to get feelings hurt.

 

And yes I couldn't help the comparison to the "Pipe dreamin" F-35 designers lol, since they also have a sort of "in theory" approach to never getting merged in air to air combat.

 

My point is the MiG 21 is also a GCI vectored interceptor, but pound for pound has many more flares. And as for those who think the M2000 will hop on it's six no problem, lets remember the M2000 has even worse energy management traits (if I understand correctly) that the 21. I will fly both, but I think it's going to be a closer match up than people think.

[jojo]

Do we have a source for Gripen & Viggen turn rates ?

 

Anyway it's sure it isn't the same debate than M-2000 Vs MiG 21 anymore, Gripen & Viggen are serious clients to deal with...so do is M-2000.

[Hook47]

Well while a Viggen would be less manuverable then a M-2000 it would be more then a match for a M-2000C.

 

It also has an advantage in armament with the 6 missiles against the 2 of the Mirage.

 

It had a VERY advanced Datalink system for its time. (i dont know that much about the mirage-2000C RDI Datalink system)

 

And a Later JA-37D (mid 90s upgrade) gives the Viggen the abillity to carry 6 Aim-120s wich would give it a significant advantage over the Mirage-2000C.

 

The only Advantages a Mirage-2000C would have over a Viggen is the instantanious turn and roll rates aswell as the FBW system making it easier to fly.

 

The Viggen has a better Thrust to Weight Ratio so it might get the upperhand in a vertical fight.

 

Against A mirage-2000-5 A viggen would not longer hold as many advantages but a Ja-37D with 6 Amraams would still be a very real threat for any Mirage-2000-5 Especially in a group fighter (2 vs 2 or more) where the Datalinking Abillities of the JA-37 Would make it dangerous for pretty much any opponent.

 

A Mirage 2000C Vs a JA-37 (Non Aim-120 Variant) would not be a easy fight for either opponent with both having some advantages over the other.

 

But all things Considerd the JA-37 Would probably have more advantages then disadvantages in an encounter especially when it comes to bvr and group combat.

 

And the Gripen has only advantages over the M-2000.

 

Its more manuverable both in instantanious turn aswell as in a substained turn.

 

Again it has better much Armament over the M-2000C and the gripen is also superior to the Mirage-2000-5 Variant even though they would be far closer match.

 

Agreed, as much as I love both aircraft, I think it's hats off to the Viggen in a DCS match up. Let's hope that can actually happen in the near future.

[Brisse]

Do we have a source for Gripen & Viggen turn rates ?

 

Anyway it's sure it isn't the same debate than M-2000 Vs MiG 21 anymore, Gripen & Viggen are serious clients to deal with...so do is M-2000.

 

I haven't seen the data myself, but the new Viggen created for BMS4.33 has a flight model based on real life charts that were recently unclassified. I don't believe they have been published anywhere on the net, but someone working on BMS managed to get his hands on them, probably directly from the source which is apparently "Krigsarkivet", or "Military archives of Sweden". They also let a few real ex Viggen pilots briefly test and give feedback during the development of the flight model.

 

I think the Viggen turned out to be a bit of a disappointment when it comes to manoeuvrability, agility, rate of climb and even top speed. It looses energy like crazy during turns. If one initiates a hard turn at optimal corner speed, it only takes a 180 degree turn until you are falling out of the sky. It seems to be closer to a MiG-21bis than a Mirage honestly, and even the MiG-21 does probably perform better under certain regimes.

 

With that said, the Viggen isn't to be underestimated. It's just not as manoeuvrable as people think. It has other advantages, like radar, avionics, data-link, ergonomics, ease of use, weaponry and range etc.... I think it's a formidable aircraft in BVR, but it's not a dogfighter.

 

I just wish I could lay my hands on the raw data they used to create the BMS flight model :)

Edited November 26, 2015 by Brisse
Spelling mistake

[jojo]

Thanks very much for that data Brisse, very interesting.

 

I think what Viggen miss to be better in dogfight is relaxed stability. But it was too early in late 60' (first flight in 1967 if I'm right).

 

That's what makes the M-2000 way better than Mirage III, and what some people here don't want to understand.

 

Gripen A/C is a nice design. But I think it's too small. Gripen E is coming closer to the Mirage 2000 in term of weight and thrust.

In fact the difference in empty weight seems to rely mostly on more recent and lighter GE-414 engine (around 1000kg Vs 1500kg for M53-P2).

[mattebubben]

Thanks very much for that data Brisse, very interesting.

 

I think what Viggen miss to be better in dogfight is relaxed stability. But it was too early in late 60' (first flight in 1967 if I'm right).

 

That's what makes the M-2000 way better than Mirage III, and what some people here don't want to understand.

 

Gripen A/C is a nice design. But I think it's too small. Gripen E is coming closer to the Mirage 2000 in term of weight and thrust.

In fact the difference in empty weight seems to rely mostly on more recent and lighter GE-414 engine (around 1000kg Vs 1500kg for M53-P2).

 

 

Well The Current Gripen already has no worse Thrust To weigth then the Mirage-2000.

 

And the Weapons carrige Capacity is about the same as the M-2000-5 with more Air-Air Pylons then the 2000C.

 

But yes the Gripen E will add some nice additional Carry Capacity (3 more weapons hardpoints) aswell as up to 40% more internal fuel giving it significantly longer legs.

 

But then again Small Size is not all disadvantage.

 

It gives the Gripen C (and A before it) the Smallest RCS of any "non Stealth" fighter.

 

Wich is a significant advantage in many situations.

 

Its also harder to see in a merge with the Old Mk.1 Eyeball.

[Brisse]

Gripen is going to have an ace up it's sleeve with the early adoption of the BAE Meteor. Not sure if it's fielded yet, but if not, then it should be pretty soon. Rumour is that it has three times the no escape zone of current AMRAAMS :)

 

And yes, the Gripen RCS is quite small. This document has been circulating the internet for some time now.

 

[Fer_Fer]

eh, against the Mig 21 the little amount of flares shouldn't be too much of a problem due to the restrictiveness of the 21's radar.

IMHO as long as the 2000 can keep on rolling (assuming it can outroll the 21, which i think it can) it can easily dodge the Lock on.

And i think this trick will work against the F-15 to a certain extend. The problem however, is the formidable HMD on the Russian jets, which makes rolling to dodge a lockon significantly harder, and as such, makes it riskier due to the low amount of flares.

[Johnny Dioxin]

My daddy's bigger than your daddy!

 

Look, guys, it doesn't matter which is better than what on paper - we all know it's the pilot that makes the difference. :pilotfly:

[domini99]

My daddy's bigger than your daddy!

 

Look, guys, it doesn't matter which is better than what on paper - we all know it's the pilot that makes the difference. ilotfly:

Exactly.

I've tried to say this before, but people just got angry at me.

[Brisse]

Guys, we are just having a friendly chat, not a contest. What's wrong with that? :)

[LuSi_6]

eh, against the Mig 21 the little amount of flares shouldn't be too much of a problem due to the restrictiveness of the 21's radar.

IMHO as long as the 2000 can keep on rolling (assuming it can outroll the 21, which i think it can) it can easily dodge the Lock on.

And i think this trick will work against the F-15 to a certain extend. The problem however, is the formidable HMD on the Russian jets, which makes rolling to dodge a lockon significantly harder, and as such, makes it riskier due to the low amount of flares.

 

That's what I use on multiplayer. Mig-29, 6 R-73 and HMD. No need for Radar :joystick:

[mattebubben]

And also with ppl talking about the Mig-21Bis having more flares (by default) then the Mirage-2000 that is pretty incorrect.

 

My understanding is that the Mig-21 does not have Built in Flare/chaff dispensors

(Even though it was commonly used with the ASO-2 Countermeassure pod in Warsaw nations and russia not even all users of the Mig-21Bis had / used the ASO-2)

 

And as such requires External Chaff/flare pods.

 

The Mirage on the otherhand being a more modern aircraft has build in flare/chaff systems aswell as

slightly later also getting the option for additonal countermeasure pods.

 

So if both aircraft fly without countermeasure pods the Mig-21 has no chaff/flare while the Mirage has.

 

And if both have the additonal countermeasure pods the Mirage 2000 can have a far superior number of Chaff / Flare in a very customised selection between the ratio of chaff vs flare.

 

See Post 1791 for on this thread (Page 180)

 

For more info about the Mirage 2000s Countermeasure systems.

Edited November 27, 2015 by mattebubben

[Moos_tachu]

Not betting a single buck on Viggen or Gripen versus the -9.

 

According some the -9 is the ultime M2000 able to manhandle rafale. But not beat it i heard that somewhere i dont remember.

 

The -9 is basically a -5 with additional A/G options (export version).

Meaning that A/A capabilities are exactly the same, let aside some minor radar differences (RDY > RDY2).

 

The -5 is Link 16 capable, this and almost every other aspects make it a very close match to the Gripen family.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Moos_tachu

[iLOVEwindmills]

Was anything mentioned by the devs concerning these optional countermeasure modules?

[Skitter]

Hey guys, I wonder how the flight model will be evaluated? Is it going to be tested by a real pilot? Where does the data come from?

I think I have missed that info. If anybody knows , could you clarify please, cheers

[Corsair]

The -9 is basically a -5 with additional A/G options (export version).

Meaning that A/A capabilities are exactly the same, let aside some minor radar differences (RDY > RDY2).

 

The -5 is Link 16 capable, this and almost every other aspects make it a very close match to the Gripen family.

 

Well the difference is a little more subtle than that.

First you have to distinguish (1) the early -5s variants, including :

- domestic (-5F),

- variants (-5EDA, -5Ei)

They all share the same RDY radar, but the -5F attack and navigation system doesn't support any air-to-ground modes ; the export ones feature modified EWS, noticeable by the different RWR antennas (two additional superhet on the fin)

 

Then comes the late -5 family, all export, also called "Mk2" :

- emirati (-9EAD)

- greek (-5EG)

- indian (I)

Some difference exist between those concerning some subsystems (EWS, integrated weaponry..) but the main feature they share is the new EMTI (MDPU in english), i.e Integrated Modular Avionics, and they are all A/G capable. The I features some further enhancement and is fitted with RDY-3 versus RDY-2 for the two former (better processing power, etc.).

[Hook47]

eh, against the Mig 21 the little amount of flares shouldn't be too much of a problem due to the restrictiveness of the 21's radar.

IMHO as long as the 2000 can keep on rolling (assuming it can outroll the 21, which i think it can) it can easily dodge the Lock on.

And i think this trick will work against the F-15 to a certain extend. The problem however, is the formidable HMD on the Russian jets, which makes rolling to dodge a lockon significantly harder, and as such, makes it riskier due to the low amount of flares.

 

The restrictiveness of the Fishbed's radar doesn't really have anything to do with Flares, because it is Radar. Flares DO matter, however, in the merge, and let's break down the two in the merge.

 

MiG 21

 

*Up to 8 R-60M Heat Seeking Missiles

*Comparable onboard Cannon

*Probably better energy management (The MiG handles it's energy surprisingly well for Delta/Flying tail configuration

*Good Roll rate, but inferior to M2000

*Comparable TTW ratio (.79 for MiG, .7x for M2000)

*Ability to carry 64 (IIRC) flares in ASO pod

-Inferior cockpit visibility

-inferior gun sight

-Inferior radar (we are comparing dog fighting ability primarily here)

 

M2000

 

*Superior Gun site

*Superior roll rate

*Better forward and rear visibility

-Major energy loss in turns

-only 4 hardpoints

-12 flares(!!!)

 

That's just my assessment, but for a 1950s vs 1970s interceptor face off, you must admit the MiG has a surprising amount of advantages. I see myself being able to down some M2000C in my ol' fishbed, primarily because I will most of the time only have to worry about dodging two SARH missiles as opposed to many times that when fighting an F-15, and once I have defeated them, I know he only has a couple heaters left. When I go looking for trouble online in the MiG, I usually have 8 R-60Ms loaded up, and that gives me the ability to shoot 4 times as much as the M2000C. Of course I will be flying the M2000 plenty too! I just think writing off the MiG is premature

Edited November 28, 2015 by Hook47

[Hook47]

And also with ppl talking about the Mig-21Bis having more flares (by default) then the Mirage-2000 that is pretty incorrect.

 

My understanding is that the Mig-21 does not have Built in Flare/chaff dispensors

(Even though it was commonly used with the ASO-2 Countermeassure pod in Warsaw nations and russia not even all users of the Mig-21Bis had / used the ASO-2)

 

And as such requires External Chaff/flare pods.

 

The Mirage on the otherhand being a more modern aircraft has build in flare/chaff systems aswell as

slightly later also getting the option for additonal countermeasure pods.

 

So if both aircraft fly without countermeasure pods the Mig-21 has no chaff/flare while the Mirage has.

 

And if both have the additonal countermeasure pods the Mirage 2000 can have a far superior number of Chaff / Flare in a very customised selection between the ratio of chaff vs flare.

 

See Post 1791 for on this thread (Page 180)

 

For more info about the Mirage 2000s Countermeasure systems.

 

The ASO pod was an extremely common upgrade to the MiG 21 Bis, and I seriously doubt any major operator of the MiG 21 today uses it WITHOUT it or a comparable mod. The "ppl" you are talking to are providing you with mis-information. I've known several people over the years who flew or maintained the Fishbed, the ASO was very common. The only operating Fishbed I have seen in real life had an ASO pod attached to it.

 

Also there is no reason for a DCS MiG pilot to fly without the ASO pod unless they want to do a short takeoff with a SPRD, so comparing what both the aircraft had by default IRL doesn't really apply, since DCS is picking certain models of aircraft from a wide range of time and pitting them against eachother. The fact is unless our M2000 gets access to countermeasure upgrades it will stand at a major disadvantage countermeasure-wise.

[jojo]

16 Flares not 12.

[domini99]

I do hope we get the countermeasure pods, because believe it or not..... Once, you're gonna need them.

[RoflSeal]

The restrictiveness of the Fishbed's radar doesn't really have anything to do with Flares, because it is Radar. Flares DO matter, however, in the merge, and let's break down the two in the merge.

 

MiG 21

 

*Up to 8 R-60M Heat Seeking Missiles

*Comparable onboard Cannon

*Probably better energy management (The MiG handles it's energy surprisingly well for Delta/Flying tail configuration

*Good Roll rate, but inferior to M2000

*Comparable TTW ratio (.79 for MiG, .7x for M2000)

*Ability to carry 64 (IIRC) flares in ASO pod

-Inferior cockpit visibility

-inferior gun sight

-Inferior radar (we are comparing dog fighting ability primarily here)

 

M2000

 

*Superior Gun site

*Superior roll rate

*Better forward and rear visibility

-Major energy loss in turns

-only 4 hardpoints

-12 flares(!!!)

 

That's just my assessment, but for a 1950s vs 1970s interceptor face off, you must admit the MiG has a surprising amount of advantages. I see myself being able to down some M2000C in my ol' fishbed, primarily because I will most of the time only have to worry about dodging two SARH missiles as opposed to many times that when fighting an F-15, and once I have defeated them, I know he only has a couple heaters left. When I go looking for trouble online in the MiG, I usually have 8 R-60Ms loaded up, and that gives me the ability to shoot 4 times as much as the M2000C. Of course I will be flying the M2000 plenty too! I just think writing off the MiG is premature

 

 

 

But the radar is important.

 

You can lock onto targets much easier to get a radar guided gun pipper on the M2000. With the MiG its much harder

[Brisse]

I guess in the M2000C we will have to ability to slave the IR missile seekers to targets locked with the radar? That alone gives a huge advantage over the MiG-21bis which has fixed seekers and has to manoeuvre the aircraft to point the seeker in the right direction.

[mattebubben]

The ASO pod was an extremely common upgrade to the MiG 21 Bis, and I seriously doubt any major operator of the MiG 21 today uses it WITHOUT it or a comparable mod. The "ppl" you are talking to are providing you with mis-information. I've known several people over the years who flew or maintained the Fishbed, the ASO was very common. The only operating Fishbed I have seen in real life had an ASO pod attached to it.

 

Also there is no reason for a DCS MiG pilot to fly without the ASO pod unless they want to do a short takeoff with a SPRD, so comparing what both the aircraft had by default IRL doesn't really apply, since DCS is picking certain models of aircraft from a wide range of time and pitting them against eachother. The fact is unless our M2000 gets access to countermeasure upgrades it will stand at a major disadvantage countermeasure-wise.

 

 

First.

 

The Mig-21 cant carry 8 R-60Ms Its a maximum of 4 (you can only have the double "pylon" on the inboard or outboard hardpoint not both.

 

So you can carry 1 double pylon on each wing and then a single pylon on the other hardpoint.

 

So Maximum of 6 Air-Air missiles.

 

And what was the Nationality of the Mig-21 you saw?.

 

I neversaid it was not common i just said far from all Mig-21Bis Operators used it.

 

And Unless you have friends who have Worked on the mig From every nation Operating the Bis Variant then that does not have an effect on my statement...