DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[Jumbik]

Oh full manual before release... one can dream.

[Zeus67]

We will start working on the manual this week.

[Hook47]

I don't think it can.

 

Looks to me like the Mirage can sustain a higher g turn in addition to its higher instantaneous turn rate.

 

Great charts. Interesting... Yes on paper it appears the Mirage has better sustained turn rate. That may help its lack of weapon and CM, but we will see. MiG vs. Mirage is something I'll be trying very quickly simply because I'm itching to have two full fidelity multirole fighters square off! This has never happened in DCS history

[Akatsuki]

Soon, very soon. :music_whistling:

 

On 1.5 OB or NTTR Alpha ? :)

[dartuil]

On 1.5 OB or NTTR Alpha ? :)

 

Good question.

[Moos_tachu]

Great charts. Interesting... Yes on paper it appears the Mirage has better sustained turn rate. That may help its lack of weapon and CM, but we will see. MiG vs. Mirage is something I'll be trying very quickly simply because I'm itching to have two full fidelity multirole fighters square off! This has never happened in DCS history

 

Again, the M2000C is no multirole, it's an A/A fighter.

 

And you already have plenty of full fidelity fighters in DCS, P-51 vs. FW190, F-86 vs. MiG-15... oh wait, maybe you mean modern fighters... which the MiG-21 is definitely not ;)

 

I understand people on this forum can't help comparing the 21 and the 2000, and they won't stop doing it (at least until they get their hands on the Mirage and realize they don't play in the same league...)

But stop wasting your time trying to find rational reasons for it, because they don't exist :)

[il_corleone]

The Mig 21 is not on the same category as the Mirage, there will be fun fights of course, but it not be "equal" in any part of the meaning.

 

Expect the Mirage to be a good fighter for Mp matches, if you can avoid the Spam of 120,s . But for sure you will have more opportunities than in the 21

[Zeus67]

Just to fan the flames in the M-2000C vs Mig-21Bis discussion:

 

The fight was done with sensors since visibility was nil and ceiling was very low.

I got hit and lost the radar but by that time I got Magic lock and he was gone. The other one escaped and I couldn't follow, not in that whiteness and without radar and rwr.

[Paradox]

It looked like you were flying at about 50% N1 the whole time

[Zeus67]

It looked like you were flying at about 50% N1 the whole time

 

I know how to build them, but do not expect me to know how to fly them. :)

[Hook47]

Again, the M2000C is no multirole, it's an A/A fighter.

 

And you already have plenty of full fidelity fighters in DCS, P-51 vs. FW190, F-86 vs. MiG-15... oh wait, maybe you mean modern fighters... which the MiG-21 is definitely not ;)

 

I understand people on this forum can't help comparing the 21 and the 2000, and they won't stop doing it (at least until they get their hands on the Mirage and realize they don't play in the same league...)

But stop wasting your time trying to find rational reasons for it, because they don't exist :)

 

Perhaps read my post more carefully instead of adding phrases in that I never said. Yes, the M2000 and MiG 21 could both be classified as multi role, regardless of the fact that there were originally intended for intercept. The minute the designers give a bird the ability to strap ground ordinance, it is now multi role by the most basic definition. Perhaps along with reading my post more carefully, you should read the first phrase describing the M2000 on the pre-sale page, my friend. That phrase being: The M2000C is a multi-role, French-designed, 4th generation fighter.

 

I never said MODERN fighters, you said that, I was referring to multirole fast movers, of which both the MiG 21 and M2000 are. And regardless of if you think the MiG 21 and M2000 play in the same league, or if there are or are not reasons to compare them, because the fact is in a couple weeks they will be both playing in the same league, that league being DCS world, and I bet there will be a darn plenty of servers out there with both aircraft available.

 

And I and other MiG drivers manage to kill above our generation regularly, so the fact that the M2000 has some underwhelming payload and countermeasure capabilities play to the older fighters advantage. I'm quite sure you wouldn't try to tell me that Gen 3 and Gen 4 fighters have never squared off in the real world?

 

The Mig 21 is not on the same category as the Mirage, there will be fun fights of course, but it not be "equal" in any part of the meaning.

 

Expect the Mirage to be a good fighter for Mp matches, if you can avoid the Spam of 120,s . But for sure you will have more opportunities than in the 21

 

Never said they were "equal" only that the MiG 21 has a couple advantages, even for a 3rd Gen+ fighter that could make it a surprising match up for the M2000 in the merge. Especially when the Mirage is Winchester and the MiG still has teeth.

 

Just to fan the flames in the M-2000C vs Mig-21Bis discussion:

 

The fight was done with sensors since visibility was nil and ceiling was very low.

I got hit and lost the radar but by that time I got Magic lock and he was gone. The other one escaped and I couldn't follow, not in that whiteness and without radar and rwr.

 

AWESOME! Thanks so much for this, Zeus! Some don't seem to understand why there is a discussion for whatever reason, but clearly these two birds are going to be squaring off! Awesome TacView, I guess he got you with a close R-60 shot but you were still in the fight thanks to the firecracker warhead on that thing! Glad you are willing to fan the discussion on as I think its a fun topic, despite those who seems to get annoyed for some reason.

 

Everyone in the debate take note- COUNTERMEASURES saved the first MiG on that Magic shot... Lol

 

Like I said, countermeasures and payload matter a lot in the merge.

 

To add, we found this week we were not quite hitting posted sustained turn rates and losing energy faster than we should be. Something I will quickly fix when I get home from the holidays.

 

Good to hear! I thought during some of the videos the energy loss seems to be pretty fast, which surprised me when I loaded up my Fishbed and noted it was keeping energy better when during comparable maneuvers than the videos demonstrating the M2000. Glad to hear you guys are going to match it up to the books a bit more.

 

This is why discussions like this is a good thing!

Edited December 2, 2015 by Hook47

[Corsair]

A MAGIC II discarded by a couple of old gen flares.. A R-60 (rear aspect.. at best limited all aspect..) hitting from front aspect at minimum range.. :huh:

[Hook47]

A MAGIC II discarded by a couple of old gen flares.. A R-60 (rear aspect.. at best limited all aspect..) hitting from front aspect at minimum range.. :huh:

 

Before you question missile realism, keep in mind the ASO system isn't THAT old compared to the flares on the M2000, and there is no reason they couldn't jink a Magic II. Also noticed the Fishbed fired more and earlier CMs than Zues. And finally remember that could have been an R-3R fired from a quick radar lock with was absolutely designed for front aspect. In fact I might be surprised if it wasn't an R-3

 

If the missile was an Ahpid, keep in mind the R-60 was not junk. It was the most agile missile in its day, remains in service to this day, and is limited all aspect. It is capable of front offset shots in right condition. The biggest drawback to the R-60 was a small warhead, but that made them cheap and light, and they have kills on their combat record to prove effectiveness

Edited November 30, 2015 by Hook47

[Cantiga]

not R-3R, it's R-60. (I don't know why R550s were defined as R-55:music_whistling:)

There are well known issues, AI Mig-21 can perform all aspect shot with old missiles(and look-down/shoot-down with their R-3R)

 

 

 

edit: totally confusing:lol:

Edited November 30, 2015 by Cantiga

[TomCatMucDe]

To add, we found this week we were not quite hitting posted sustained turn rates and losing energy faster than we should be. Something I will quickly fix when I get home from the holidays.

 

what? going in holidays 2 weeks before a product launch? my boss would crucify me if i even ask for them.

 

enjoy your vacations, see you in 2 weeks in the air maybe :)

[OnlyforDCS]

As we are nearing (hopefully) the initial beta release of the plane I have a few questions:

 

Are any training missions going to be available when the plane is initially released or are we going to have to wait for them. For example a cold start training mission would be awesome. If that is not an option will there be at least a few simple single mission scenarios which we can use to get familiar with the plane and its systems? (Sort of like those available for the L39c?)

Edited December 1, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[Moos_tachu]

Perhaps read my post more carefully instead of adding phrases in that I never said. Yes, the M2000 and MiG 21 could both be classified as multi role, regardless of the fact that there were originally intended for intercept. The minute the designers give a bird the ability to strap ground ordinance, it is now multi role by the most basic definition. Perhaps along with reading my post more carefully, you should read the first phrase describing the M2000 on the pre-sale page, my friend. That phrase being: The M2000C is a multi-role, French-designed, 4th generation fighter.

 

etc.

 

Hey take it easy, there was nothing personal in my previous post, no need to be aggressive ;)

[jojo]

Multi-role is an ambiguous word to say the least.

 

If a fighter that can drop bombs is multi-role, then yes the Mirage 2000 C is.

 

It doesn't means that it is well suited to the task. This is why FAF adopted dedicated variants like Mirage 2000 N & Mirage 2000 D.

This is why French people don't consider the Mirage 2000 C as multi-role.

 

Mirage 2000 E are better suited to AG task with RDM radar and special modes like DBS, targeting pod etc...to the expense of degraded AA capacity (compared to RDI)

 

For most people true multi-role aircraft are F/A-18 Hornet or F-16C.

 

So indeed when ED says Mirage 2000 C is multi-role, it does overate it a little bit.

Mirage 2000 C is not more multi-role than baseline MiG 29A (9.12).

But it has better NAV system than makes the task a little bit easier.

[jojo]

To share my skepticism about R-60M, here is firing envelope I found scrolling the web years back.

 

Not it seems to be of Russian origin, so you can't claim it to be underrated...

 

This is the intersection of kinematic performance and seeker capacity.

R-60M should need at least 40° offset to be able to lock in forward hemisphere. This TacView track clearly show that at least AI MiG 21 Bis don't have that restriction.

 

And finally remember that could have been an R-3R fired from a quick radar lock with was absolutely designed for front aspect. In fact I might be surprised if it wasn't an R-3

 

If the missile was an Ahpid, keep in mind the R-60 was not junk. It was the most agile missile in its day, remains in service to this day, and is limited all aspect. It is capable of front offset shots in right condition. The biggest drawback to the R-60 was a small warhead, but that made them cheap and light, and they have kills on their combat record to prove effectiveness

 

And finally remember the Super 530D is not yet available. Its 30kg warhead head-on hurts a lot :D

Edited November 30, 2015 by jojo

[il_corleone]

Thanks for the post Zeus, a little bit cofusing about the missiles! and also take note that Human Mi21 could not shot that way, I,m still confident that the MIg 21, not easy but it will be a normal target, people here want to believe what they want his plane to be (I include myself with the ARMAT discussion)

[jojo]

To summarize Mirage 2000 c Vs MiG 21, Mirage has:

- better instantaneous turn rate

- better sustain turn rate

- better flight control system

- better visibility

- better radar

- 4 missiles Vs 6 but Mirage's missile have wider firing envelope and bigger warhead (by large)

 

The MiG 21 has :

- more (inferior) missiles

- more flares

 

Can the MiG 21 kill Mirage 2000 C ?

Yes, in dogfight everything can happen. This is why western forces put so much emphasis on BVR weapons and tactics, to use their advantage in electronic over Warsaw Pact forces.

 

It will be all about tactics (ambush CAP, SAM traps etc...).

This is what we see in YouTube videos of F-15's kills by MiG 21 : the MiG 21 doesn't outmaneuver the F-15. But if the F-15 loose SA it can be killed...the same for Mirage 2000 C, it's about SA and energy management.

 

What matters is not if a MiG 21 can get a kill from time to time, it's kill ratio that gives an idea of aircraft proficiency.

[TomCatMucDe]

To summarize Mirage 2000 c Vs MiG 21, Mirage has:

- better instantaneous turn rate

- better sustain turn rate

- better flight control system

- better visibility

- better radar

- 4 missiles Vs 6 but Mirage's missile have wider firing envelope and bigger warhead (by large)

 

The MiG 21 has :

- more (inferior) missiles

- more flares

 

Can the MiG 21 kill Mirage 2000 C ?

Yes, in dogfight everything can happen. This is why western forces put so much emphasis on BVR weapons and tactics, to use their advantage in electronic over Warsaw Pact forces.

 

It will be all about tactics (ambush CAP, SAM traps etc...).

This is what we see in YouTube videos of F-15's kills by MiG 21 : the MiG 21 doesn't outmaneuver the F-15. But if the F-15 loose SA it can be killed...the same for Mirage 2000 C, it's about SA and energy management.

 

What matters is not if a MiG 21 can get a kill from time to time, it's kill ratio that gives an idea of aircraft proficiency.

 

nice comparison. to me the MiG21 has effectively also 4 missles. A pair of R60 is worth 1 missile.

 

PS: I love my MiG. i m flying it almost exclusively in DCS

[WinterH]

Also worth noting, carrying twin R-60s on a pylon does have quite tangible impact on MiG's flight characteristics. Mirage is already much better in flight performance, why widen the gap further with 6 missiles? :)

 

Oh and agree, even if you opt for twin R-60s, 2 x R-60 = 1 proper missile :).

 

Before I get scoffed at for favoritism towards Mirage, let me tell you that I've always liked MiG-21 and it has always been among my favorite aircraft, while Mirage simply isn't among my favorites, yet, reality is reality, looking objectively, Mirage would and should have a significantly superiour exchange ratio against MiG-21. But that's not to say matchup won't be interesting and enjoyable for a good MiG pilot, I don't think even people who wants to fly MiG against Mirage suggest MiG will have a favorable or even on par kill ratio against a 4th gen throughbred fighter, and one that is known to be particularly agile even among 4th gen at that :).

[Zeus67]

Just to inform you that I am discussing the RDI radar on this thread:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=153542

[TomCatMucDe]

honestly the MiG doesnt stand a real chance against the Mirage face to face. Just get over it.

 

It's only chance is to sneak behind it, but then I can stab Klitchko from behind