Mig 21 general usage thread

[Paradox]

I've seen it claimed a few times that a fluke of the design meant that it's weirdly manoeuverable at high AoA, I don't know how much truth there is to that.

 

It's certainly a very fast aicraft with a high power to weight ratio, especially for its time and its low drag airframe *should* make it decently quick to accelerate at least compared with its contemporaries.

 

Visibility and stability will be a problem, longitudinal stability with a heavy load is said to be quite dismal and unequally distributed loads are almost not worth flying with.

 

There were problems with drop tanks not being ditched properly generating an asymmetric load which has been responsible for problems. I don't know if that caused any crashes but it would probably persuade you to RTB.

 

Visibility will certainly be an interesting problem, I've seen the way they've implemented it in DCS and it's quite a painless process, using the provided periscope.

 

All the best fighters have periscopes right?

[Devious]

Day 1 buy for me as well. I am really looking forward to fighting with it. Even though it'll be outlcassed, it will be fun to learn. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to humiliate some people in it.

[crazyirish93]

I've seen it claimed a few times that a fluke of the design meant that it's weirdly manoeuverable at high AoA, I don't know how much truth there is to that.

 

It's certainly a very fast aicraft with a high power to weight ratio, especially for its time and its low drag airframe *should* make it decently quick to accelerate at least compared with its contemporaries.

 

Visibility and stability will be a problem, longitudinal stability with a heavy load is said to be quite dismal and unequally distributed loads are almost not worth flying with.

 

There were problems with drop tanks not being ditched properly generating an asymmetric load which has been responsible for problems. I don't know if that caused any crashes but it would probably persuade you to RTB.

 

Visibility will certainly be an interesting problem, I've seen the way they've implemented it in DCS and it's quite a painless process, using the provided periscope.

 

All the best fighters have periscopes right?

problem with the periscope is that it become unusable at higher G forces which annoyingly is the times when looking behind would be quite useful.That said my plans are to find a mig 29,follow him when contact is made go low full afterburner get close enough to loose all my r60m's and then run the hell home.

Edited April 29, 2014 by crazyirish93

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Day 1 buy for me as well. I am really looking forward to fighting with it. Even though it'll be outlcassed, it will be fun to learn. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to humiliate some people in it.

 

I'll make it my mission in game to surprise Flankers and Eagles alike.

[Devious]

I like the way you are thinking...I'll be your wingman!

[RvETito]

The Bulgarian AF MiG-21bis' have participated in quiet a few joint NATO exercises mostly with/against squadrons from USAFE flying the F-15 and the F-16. In open BVR it's nothing but a target drone as it has zero BVR capabilities, especially in head on. Whatever you do you need to bite your target on the neck from behind. But I've read some interesting comments from the US pilots who admit that the 21 is a nasty adversary in a hide and seek scenario. It has very small RCS and an effective terrain masking makes it very hard to detect. These tactics have been successfully used in penetration scenarios and in number of cases the 21's have managed to sneak in undetected. Though they've had to be completely silent - make your presence known and you'll be in trouble. The MiG-21 just can't survive on it's own in a modern air combat due to it's obsolete sensors but it could still be a though challenge if it's used smartly. That involves either AWACS or GCI to give to the 21 pilot situational awareness of what's happening around, most likely above.

 

So for sure it will be a challenge in the DCS world to be successful with this legendary airplane. You'll have to give it a lot of thinking and planning before you step into combat. Should be great fun, just can't wait to fly it!

[ironmarc]

The Bulgarian AF MiG-21bis' have participated in quiet a few joint NATO exercises mostly with/against squadrons from USAFE flying the F-15 and the F-16. In open BVR it's nothing but a target drone as it has zero BVR capabilities, especially in head on. Whatever you do you need to bite your target on the neck from behind. But I've read some interesting comments from the US pilots who admit that the 21 is a nasty adversary in a hide and seek scenario. It has very small RCS and an effective terrain masking makes it very hard to detect. These tactics have been successfully used in penetration scenarios and in number of cases the 21's have managed to sneak in undetected. Though they've had to be completely silent - make your presence known and you'll be in trouble. The MiG-21 just can't survive on it's own in a modern air combat due to it's obsolete sensors but it could still be a though challenge if it's used smartly. That involves either AWACS or GCI to give to the 21 pilot situational awareness of what's happening around, most likely above.

 

So for sure it will be a challenge in the DCS world to be successful with this legendary airplane. You'll have to give it a lot of thinking and planning before you step into combat. Should be great fun, just can't wait to fly it!

 

That's very interesting. In the end, a tool is just as good as the person that's using it.

 

But I think those scenarios aren't going to be happening very often in DCS. It will be a bit like the P-51 for a while.

It would still be better to have the F-4, Mirage III or F-104 included in the future, to be the opponents of the MiG-21...

[GGTharos]

In DCS you don't have a set goal. Also in DCS the more advanced planes really don't have all the (automated, no switches needed) bells and whistles that make them a real nightmare for lower capability fighters in real life.

[SimFreak]

I wonder if somehow we can enforce restrictive ROE such as requirement for visual PID before declaring contact hostile.

[GGTharos]

You can't, IFF and NCTR works perfectly for the modern jets.

[Sceptre]

ground attack should be very interesting in this, and if I remember correctly in falcon 4 Aliied Force the MiG 21s were a pain in the ass to the older model F-16

[Zakatak]

So, the ability of the aircraft aside, what kind of missions should I expect to be flying in the MiG-21? I preordered this 2 years ago but I kind of forgotten about this project in the Fall of 2013, so I'm behind on this. I was mainly interested in this plane because I figured it would provide a wide variety of game play options, am I right on that? Just some basic examples of what kind of scenarios I should expect would be nice.

 

EDIT: kind of off-topic, but I don't feel like making a separate thread. I have an standard X-52 without pedals and my TrackIR 4 should be get to me before this is released. I should have plenty of room on my HOTAS to fly this plane, erm, effectively?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Zakatak

[statrekmike]

So, the ability of the aircraft aside, what kind of missions should I expect to be flying in the MiG-21? I preordered this 2 years ago but I kind of forgotten about this project in the Fall of 2013, so I'm behind on this. I was mainly interested in this plane because I figured it would provide a wide variety of game play options, am I right on that? Just some basic examples of what kind of scenarios I should expect would be nice.

 

EDIT: kind of off-topic, but I don't feel like making a separate thread. I have an standard X-52 without pedals and my TrackIR 4 should be get to me before this is released. I should have plenty of room on my HOTAS to fly this plane, erm, effectively?

 

I don't see why a X-52 can't handle it, it is not going to be like most modern fighters where a lot of controls are accessed via that real HOTAS, a lot of your work will be done with the mouse in the cockpit.

[MBot]

I wonder if somehow we can enforce restrictive ROE such as requirement for visual PID before declaring contact hostile.

 

The problem is probably AI. Right now it knows instantly if a contact is friendly or hostile. The concept of unknown contacts would have to be introduced into AI, which would probably involve a major AI rewrite and adjustments to the ME. The AI would have to be told how to react on contacts it doesn't know the identity in different circumstances (ignore, avoid, maneuver to ID, make a "guess" on multiple factors etc.) and the mission designer would need further fine control on the ROE through the ME.

 

I would absolutely love to see the air-air combat including the identification dimension. While the problem has mostly been solved by modern tchnology, historically it has been a major factor for a long time. Of the 77 Israeli kills made in the 1982 Bekaa Valley campaign, only a single kill was BVR. F-15A/C shot 23 Sparrows during these engagements for a total of 12 AIM-7 kills, of these only 5 shots were BVR resulting in the mentioned 1 kill. I read an interesting annectote in the Osprey Combat Aircraft Israeli F-15 book. An Eagle was cleared by the radar controller to engage a hostile target BVR (a rare occasion in contracst to the standing VisID ROE). The pilot opted to still get closer to make a visual ID, only to find out that his target was a friendly Israeli aircraft.

 

I think there is a lot of gameplay potential in the ID dimension.

[howie87]

As far as the agility of the MiG-21 goes, it's not a dog fighter. It was built as a high altitude, Mach 2 interceptor.

 

Rear visibility sucks because you should be looking for the B-52 in front of you not the F-16 behind you.

 

The delta wing gives it low wave drag, a good rate of climb and nice high altitude performance. It will also bleed speed like crazy in a high G turn by acting as an enormous airbrake.

 

If you get the jump on an unsuspecting adversary and you happen to be lower than them, faster than them and behind them, they're in trouble. Other than that, you're going to be at a disadvantage.

 

As a low altitude strike fighter though, I think you could have some fun with it. I'll be strapping on a fuel tank and doing some bomb-lugging terrain-hugging in the NTTR. While you'll lack any sort of precision strike capability, you'll certainly make an interesting target for teen series fighters to find and take down.

[otto]

The problem is probably AI. Right now it knows instantly if a contact is friendly or hostile. The concept of unknown contacts would have to be introduced into AI, which would probably involve a major AI rewrite and adjustments to the ME. The AI would have to be told how to react on contacts it doesn't know the identity in different circumstances (ignore, avoid, maneuver to ID, make a "guess" on multiple factors etc.) and the mission designer would need further fine control on the ROE through the ME.

 

I would absolutely love to see the air-air combat including the identification dimension. While the problem has mostly been solved by modern tchnology, historically it has been a major factor for a long time. Of the 77 Israeli kills made in the 1982 Bekaa Valley campaign, only a single kill was BVR. F-15A/C shot 23 Sparrows during these engagements for a total of 12 AIM-7 kills, of these only 5 shots were BVR resulting in the mentioned 1 kill. I read an interesting annectote in the Osprey Combat Aircraft Israeli F-15 book. An Eagle was cleared by the radar controller to engage a hostile target BVR (a rare occasion in contracst to the standing VisID ROE). The pilot opted to still get closer to make a visual ID, only to find out that his target was a friendly Israeli aircraft.

 

I think there is a lot of gameplay potential in the ID dimension.

 

 

1.I have read about this too.

 

2.I don't know if anybody mentioned this but mig 21 vs mig 21 missions is also an option.

Edited May 1, 2014 by otto

[SimFreak]

You can't, IFF and NCTR works perfectly for the modern jets.

 

For hardware perspective, yes. Not from political through.

[GGTharos]

MSIP eagles do not have that problem. For the moment, you're not in danger of flying a non-MSIP eagle in this game. I'm referring to NCTR ... unless of course you equip both sides with the same aircrafts.

 

 

F-15A/C shot 23 Sparrows during these engagements for a total of 12 AIM-7 kills, of these only 5 shots were BVR resulting in the mentioned 1 kill. I read an interesting annectote in the Osprey Combat Aircraft Israeli F-15 book. An Eagle was cleared by the radar controller to engage a hostile target BVR (a rare occasion in contracst to the standing VisID ROE). The pilot opted to still get closer to make a visual ID, only to find out that his target was a friendly Israeli aircraft.

[GGTharos]

What does the game know from political situations? We've done some intercept missions that require a VID (specifically reading a tail number), so it's possible, but it's all very scripted.

 

For hardware perspective, yes. Not from political through.

[GGTharos]

Here's the unclassified Have Doughnut document. It's for the 21E, so probably a lot of the limitations do not apply to the one modeled by LN (21bis).

 

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_50.PDF

[SimFreak]

Nice fine.

[RvETito]

Some recent ground attack usage of the MiG-21bis -

Fwo-fY3HHA8

 

So it should be interesting from this aspect as well.

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

Some recent ground attack usage of the MiG-21Bis

Taxi taxi taxi ... lol, here's your taxi to hell. Edited May 12, 2014 by Hans-Joachim Marseille

[jib]

You can't, IFF and NCTR works perfectly for the modern jets.

 

If it works perfectly why did 26 die when an F15C shot down 2 friendly Blackhawks?

There is always room for human or machine error especially with complex systems in a wars zone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

[TAW_Blaze]

If it works perfectly why did 26 die when an F15C shot down 2 friendly Blackhawks?

There is always room for human or machine error especially with complex systems in a wars zone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

Pretty sure he referred DCS IFF, which is failproof. That's not quite true for IRL.