Are 32 hornets enough for 24h readiness?

[PLP]

Just a question for you knowledgeable people:

 

We have to vote here in Switzerland for the purchase of a bunch of Gripens to replace our 54 or so aging Tigers. Otherwise, we have 32 Hornets bough about ten years ago I think. The question is: would 32 F/A-18 be enough to ensure a 24-7 readiness, or would it be impossible because of maintenance cycles? Just wondering.

[lunaticfringe]

Should be, easily.

 

Then again, since you guys turn off the office hours after 5PM and resort to others covering the airspace until the following morning, I'm not really sure it's that big of a concern strategically...

[Flagrum]

The question is, readiness ... for what? For ensuring the integrity of your air space, i.e. to intercept any possible intruders, I guess? Considering, Swizerland isn't the largest of countries, how many interceptors would be necessary to cover the area at any time? Dunno, 4? 6? 8? I would think 8 aircrafts ready to scramble, 24/7 ... 32 total aircrafts would seem realonable to me?

[docfu]

Not to derail but I'd definitely love to see DCS: Gripen...

 

Something about that plane seems, well, it's like a scooter: Sure it's not as cool as a Hornet but they sure are fun to ride...

[PLP]

Should be, easily.

 

Then again, since you guys turn off the office hours after 5PM and resort to others covering the airspace until the following morning, I'm not really sure it's that big of a concern strategically...

 

Yeah I know in Switzerland everything is so orderly that war will never take place at night or on a Sunday, since war is noisy and making noise on Sundays is illegal :P.

 

Thats exactly the point, since it is being used as an argument for the necessity of the Gripen purchase, I was wondering how solid that argument was.

 

I was also wondering how much maintenance is needed per flight hour on those planes, and if we would not go through spare parts and frame lifetime too fast if we were to assure a 24/7 plan for our f18s.

[PLP]

Not to derail but I'd definitely love to see DCS: Gripen...

 

Something about that plane seems, well, it's like a scooter: Sure it's not as cool as a Hornet but they sure are fun to ride...

 

Sure, as long as we have DCS: Rafale first ;)

[Agiel7]

I believe a while ago the Swiss held one of their largest military exercises. The only remotely plausible enemy they could think of for that scenario was a bankrupt French breakaway state that is trying to invade Switzerland because "the Swiss stole all our monies!"

[RagnarDa]

No-no! You need to buy those Gripens!

 

...please?

 

[Pilotasso]

We have 30 F-16's and we always have 24/7 alert capability with 2 F-16's (in turns of course).

[Kenan]

We in Croatia have 2 MiG-21s and we always have a 24/7 alert with 2 MiG-21s (in turns of course).

[Isegrim]

We in Croatia have 2 MiG-21s and we always have a 24/7 alert with 2 MiG-21s (in turns of course).

 

 

^^

[Darkwolf]

a 24-7 readiness

 

Is such thing existing in switzerland ? No offense intended in the question - just curious.

 

http://rt.com/news/swiss-fighters-office-hours-514/

[PLP]

Is such thing existing in switzerland ? No offense intended in the question - just curious.

 

http://rt.com/news/swiss-fighters-office-hours-514/

 

No, and that is exactly the point, it should be changed.

[Isegrim]

No, and that is exactly the point, it should be changed.

 

 

And Why ????

[sobek]

And Why ????

 

It could be argued that it is a states own duty to police the sovereignty and safety of its own airspace. Of course that is a difficult matter since this a lot harder to fund for small nations compared to bigger ones.

[PFunk1606688187]

It could be argued that it is a states own duty to police the sovereignty and safety of its own airspace. Of course that is a difficult matter since this a lot harder to fund for small nations compared to bigger ones.

 

No doubt part of the enduring attractiveness of being involved with organizations like NATO.

 

An attack on one is an attack on all.

 

I'm sure some Swedes could weigh in with a few interesting perspectives however.

[PLP]

And Why ????

 

I don't think being dependent on neighbors for airspace security is such a good idea for a sovereign state on the long term, if only as a principle. And I also don't think entering NATO would be good for us, I mean sure the defense alliance stuff is great but then again it is a also a great way to get dragged into unnecessary conflicts or confrontations.

 

Plus, read in the newspaper today that our Hornets would be enough for 24h readiness and airspace policing, but there would not be enough resources left for other tasks mandated to the air force (e.g. training pilots for CAS).

[EtherealN]

Well, our readiness isn't exactly better than the Swiss, and we have some 100ish "operational" Gripens. But that sorry state of affairs is less a question of the airplane and more about that office hours thingie - and us implementing a totally rad new spare parts ordering system that guarantees no-one will have the spare parts they need. :D

 

What I would say on this question is that the Gripen does make sense in the air policing role: it is a lot cheaper to operate and maintain and can operate from more basic facilities. But since you already have the F-18's I don't know if it could be said that the Gripens are required for that. If those Hornets were not there the Gripen would be a pretty obvious choice for Switzerland though, IMO. ("Serviceability" - as in, planes ready for action with little maintenance done - is one of the big strong points of Gripen; as long as you don't mess upp your supply chain completely like we Swedes did. :P )

[RagnarDa]

Yes, if the sole purpose of your air force is to escort hijacked civilian aircrafts then maybe even the Gripen might be overkill. Instead we might interest you in the BAMSE-system or maybe a few RBS-70s? Perhaps something like the CV90 AD-version might suit your flavor? ;)

[brydling]

would 32 F/A-18 be enough to ensure a 24-7 readiness

 

Probably, but as you say they will get old quickly. It will also leave little room for pilot training.

 

Does anyone know the maintenance hours per flight hour for the F/A-18? 5-10 hours?

 

Edit: http://yarchive.net/mil/fa18_vs_a6.html says 19,1 maintenance man-hours are needed for every flight hour, but it says nothing about the real wall-clock time. That should be shorter due to several technicians working in parallell.

Edited May 14, 2014 by brydling

[GripenNG]

If there is something I don´t understand about the Swiss decision to purchase the Gripen is why it is intended to work alongside the Hornet? Isn´t it overkill in terms of maintaining and educating personel and equipment with two fighter systems capable of the same tasks, even the major airforces in Europe are (or are in the process) of operating just one multi-role fighter type.

 

But I guess that Swiss don´t have to do just as everyone else does. But it just makes you wonder why! :)

 

The Swedish media reports almost daily about all the negative sides opposing the deal. That the radio communication (?) in Gripen will be American made and therefore cannot be trusted in the wakes of the NSA-scandal according to the Gripen opposition in Switzerland. But both their current fighters are American made!

 

Are the debate really this - excuse the expression - childish in Switzerland for the time being? This fighter-deal have been edged with that various sides are just throwing poop on each other it seems...in public media.

 

But that leads to the question - how educated are the voters about the matter? Do the voters seem to have a pretty natural point of view, or does it seem to be angled in favor to which media or party that yells the most?

[Korn]

Sure they are. Enough.

 

Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was outside working hours

[Darkwolf]

Well - where is the point having so many fighters ? It's not like foreign countries would invade switzerland anytime soon, and if they decided to do so, i wonder how many hours it would take to just destroy the fleet and/or airfields.

 

It's same here in Belgium. They are talking F-35. But i wonder why on hell they would buy them. The last time the country was invaded, it took only a month before surrender. And to bomb some Talibans, the F16 is way enough.

[mig29movt]

 

Are the debate really this - excuse the expression - childish in Switzerland for the time being? This fighter-deal have been edged with that various sides are just throwing poop on each other it seems...in public media.

 

But that leads to the question - how educated are the voters about the matter? Do the voters seem to have a pretty natural point of view, or does it seem to be angled in favor to which media or party that yells the most?

 

Yes it mostly is childish, our politics are as populistic as they are in every other country.

 

The voters don't have an educated opinion about this (how should they? Regarding most of the media)

It will be a matter of how many will go vote and a big amount of luck.

That's my personal opinion.

 

Well: I discussed this several times with pilots in our pilot school (where I served my duty)

 

The 24/7 thing works different: if our Federal Council declares that a high alarm state is neccessary then the AF will be armed and ready up there 24/7. During peace time (always since 1945) they are not armed nor is there a permanent presence of fighter jets in the air.

 

With our current fleet we will be able to maintain this during 1-2 weeks only.

 

Currently our Hornets are only armed (guns, AIM-120C, AIM-9X) during the 2 weeks of the World Economic Forum in Davos or other very special meetings. But without permanent air presence. Some pilots are ready, sitting (!) in the cockpit during these events 24/7 incl. ready groundcrew

 

For your information: we're only using the weapons mentioned on our Hornets plus the 9P on the F-5s. We had recce and ground attack capabilities back in the days with our Mirage IIIRS an with the Hawker Hunter. And the plan is to restore both capabilities on the Gripen, as we still have the instructing pilots.

 

BTW: every airbases has its flightplans in which a lot of stuff in the surrounding areas is respected. Example: there are absolutely no states and landings on an airbase if there is a funeral in the neighouring village or during final exams in summer (secondary school)

And no I'm not kidding...

Well of course I would have been distractet too during exams: HORNET FTW! :lol:

Edited May 14, 2014 by mig29movt

[Scrim]

No doubt part of the enduring attractiveness of being involved with organizations like NATO.

 

An attack on one is an attack on all.

 

I'm sure some Swedes could weigh in with a few interesting perspectives however.

 

Not really. Ever since NATO was created, secret agreements between NATO and every Swedish administration until the end of the Cold war at least have stated that in case of war, Sweden will effectively be participating as a member of NATO, regardless of whether the scenario is an attack on Sweden, or NATO and the WP coming to blows.

 

The result has been that the Swedish military currently has gaping holes in its overall TO&E that were ignored because NATO was relied on to fill them for us in case of war. However, lately, especially with the recent decline of relations between Western countries and Russia, the US and NATO have made it abundantly clear that Sweden is on its own in case of war, and should join NATO. Whether or not there are current secret agreements similar to the ones that we now know existed during the Cold war is anyone's guess.

 

Long story short: Our own CiC has officially stated that the Swedish military can't even defend the major cities for a week in case of an invasion. We have modern equipment made useless in a modern war because of unfilled gaps (gigity), and are trying to score freebies in the form of defense pacts with neighboring countries who've repeatedly told us to mind our own business because they're in NATO. And we're sinking large parts of our small defense budget into domestic products that the military is ordered to purchase, regardless of whether or not they can find better and cheaper equivalents abroad, solely to keep up the appearance of an alliance free Sweden that can stand its own ground, which in hindsight has turned out to be a convenient lie told by every Swedish administration since the birth of NATO to conceal the fact that we had secret defense pacts with them.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Scrim