KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[Kamov Akula]

I'm old enough buddy.

 

Welcome to the forums Kamov Akula. Not sure how old you are or which part of the world you're from, but that's not how we post around here.

 

Why don't you quietly shove off, fanboy. I am merely expressing my frustrations about my Black Shark experience, which I have been playing since BS 1 first came out. I don't intend to reiterate all the individual concerns because this thread mentions all of them already. I am not offending anyone, just stating that my money will no longer go into DCS if the Black Shark module doesn't get more attention. Last I checked, that's how free market economy works.

[Isegrim]

Why don't you quietly shove off, fanboy. I am merely expressing my frustrations about my Black Shark experience, which I have been playing since BS 1 first came out. I don't intend to reiterate all the individual concerns because this thread mentions all of them already. I am not offending anyone, just stating that my money will no longer go into DCS if the Black Shark module doesn't get more attention. Last I checked, that's how free market economy works.

 

And where is the proplem with your KA-50 Module? Reaper already asked this.

 

The Shkval proplem is not really a proplem it simply performs like this.

 

I can be triggered by low Contrast conditions/Bad weather/LR cycles at the edge of maximum possibilitys like slewing while LR cycle or Fast helicopter movement at low level + LR cycle also like strange keybindings (mouse/Shkval slew) and other.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Isegrim

[whitehot]

And where is the proplem with your KA-50 Module? Reaper already asked this.

 

The Shkval proplem is not really a proplem it simply performs like this.

 

I can be triggered by low Contrast conditions/Bad weather/LR cycles at the edge of maximum possibilitys like slewing while LR cycle or Fast helicopter movement at low level + LR cycle also like strange keybindings (mouse/Shkval slew) and other.

 

Well, one could argue that the shkval in our BS module is lacking several modes of operations (there is that rotary, among the controls under the screen, that is "INOP", but seems to be related to adjust the optics to different light / weather conditions).. It has been there since BS1, I had hoped that they would finally implement it one day but I doubt that is gonna happen.

[Isegrim]

Well, one could argue that the shkval in our BS module is lacking several modes of operations (there is that rotary, among the controls under the screen, that is "INOP", but seems to be related to adjust the optics to different light / weather conditions).. It has been there since BS1, I had hoped that they would finally implement it one day but I doubt that is gonna happen.

 

 

Sorry but for me those are all working.

version is 1.5 hotfix 2.

 

[Isegrim]

Now you will not notice any difference on the IT-23 Monitor because the EO Camera of the Shkval and the IT-23s monitors Camera are 2 Different Cameras.

One is Electro optic the other one is TV.

 

In very rare situations the Color filter helps to get a TA on screen in Low light or Bad weather Conditions. But like i have written its that rare (happend to me two times it did make a difference in 6 Years while just testing sometimes) that it is not really a help and not really worth a tweak on that rotary.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Isegrim

[dimitriov]

The Shkval proplem is not really a proplem it simply performs like this.

 

 

Have you ever in your life used a telemeter to say such thing ?

 

This is mainly why issues like this one aren't fixed, people saying without knowing anything about it "it's its normal behaviour".

 

NO ! A laser is a laser ! It doesn't get shorter or longer when using it ! It's just a telemeter ! If Leica manages to sell real telemeters for 200$, and they work fine (1-5 meters accuracy), could you provide me an explanation on how should the Kamov one loose 2 to 10 km when using it ?

 

There is a real issue about this !

 

So if you want a finely working shkval, cease excusing ED for all its bugs ! This is because of people like you that DCS is today a bug nest ! And yes, that's clearly fanboyism, don't care about "ow we don't post like this in the Ka-50". Do you know what does the community think about the ED forums community :

 

1) Censor

2) Fanboys

 

And that's all, shame on you !

[Bushmanni]

Now you will not notice any difference on the IT-23 Monitor because the EO Camera of the Shkval and the IT-23s monitors Camera are 2 Different Cameras.

One is Electro optic the other one is TV.

 

In very rare situations the Color filter helps to get a TA on screen in Low light or Bad weather Conditions. But like i have written its that rare (happend to me two times it did make a difference in 6 Years while just testing sometimes) that it is not really a help and not really worth a tweak on that rotary.

Two cameras in Shkval, where did you get that? Besides, TV is an electro optical device. Because the lock mechanization is modeled by cheating instead of modeling edge detection to lock into an image with sufficient contrast, all those image adjustment controls have no effect on locking performance and modeling them would have only cosmetic effect.

 

Color filters are used to help with glare or overexposure. Using filters in low light conditions just reduces the light going into the sensor further reducing image quality. I doubt filters are modeled. Explosions, burning vehicles and other artificial illumination affects locking and I bet that's what helped you get the lock in those rare low light occasions. Besides physics doesn't know about filters that help in low light conditions. You can have coatings on lenses that do help but simply adding such filter in front of any lens system is still going to reduce the light transmission as it doesn't affect the lenses behind, it simply minimizes the light blocking effect of the filter.

[Isegrim]

Have you ever in your life used a telemeter to say such thing ?

 

This is mainly why issues like this one aren't fixed, people saying without knowing anything about it "it's its normal behaviour".

 

NO ! A laser is a laser ! It doesn't get shorter or longer when using it ! It's just a telemeter ! If Leica manages to sell real telemeters for 200$, and they work fine (1-5 meters accuracy), could you provide me an explanation on how should the Kamov one loose 2 to 10 km when using it ?

 

There is a real issue about this !

 

So if you want a finely working shkval, cease excusing ED for all its bugs ! This is because of people like you that DCS is today a bug nest ! And yes, that's clearly fanboyism, don't care about "ow we don't post like this in the Ka-50". Do you know what does the community think about the ED forums community :

 

1) Censor

2) Fanboys

 

And that's all, shame on you !

 

The LR cycle takes 3 Seconds.... If you move the shkval in this time ....it's there.

 

@ Bushmanni currently not a home but I will search for it. Maybe you find out something yourself ... Google for I-251 and compare it to the Shkval

[whitehot]

Sorry but for me those are all working.

version is 1.5 hotfix 2.

 

 

I was referring to the rotary u call "color filter", which in-game is labeled as "Shkval optics adjustment" in fact does not produce any effect on the display but it still can be rotated around.

 

Is it documented on the latest versions manual? AFAICR it was described as not operational, but that was several versions ago.

[dimitriov]

The LR cycle takes 3 Seconds.... If you move the shkval in this time ....it's there.

 

Aaaaaand it even happens when you lock on a building in AH... Perhaps is it a moving building ? There is an issue, people should try to provide as much info as possible instead of negating it.

[Isegrim]

Ok so I am neglating a Bug which happens for me 1-3 Times a year when flying nearly daily for some hours in all wheather and light conditions for only some seconds...... OK

 

How is your slew controls mapped?

[dimitriov]

Here is a track I just made.

 

Mountains, 12:00 no clouds, no fog etc, DCS 1.5

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8Wfkj5nEKIGbnhIRkk2YlkxS3c/view?usp=sharing

 

Locking a mountain 7km away, wait for the 3 seconds.

 

Move just 1 mm your shkval, telemtry is gone (from 12 to 0 km).

 

Locking the ground 2.5 km in front of me, and then slewing will make me loose 500 meters. That's grat when your on a rockets pass on infantry for example...

 

WELL. Not a problem ! After all, we do not play so often by night, by fog, by cloudy weather, in morning or in afternoon, or in mountains ! Personnally I only fly above sea, and don't use my shkval cause it's a weapon system and weapons are bad...

 

This bug is a bug and will be reported in the section DCS1.5. No need to longer insist ;)

 

See you !

Edited October 11, 2015 by dimitriov

[M1Combat]

Have you ever in your life used a telemeter to say such thing ?

 

 

NO ! A laser is a laser ! It doesn't get shorter or longer when using it ! It's just a telemeter ! If Leica manages to sell real telemeters for 200$, and they work fine (1-5 meters accuracy), could you provide me an explanation on how should the Kamov one loose 2 to 10 km when using it ?

 

There is a real issue about this !

 

Have you ever tried to use a $200 Telemeter at 2-10Km???

 

With a $200 unit you're lucky to get an accurate range at even 1500m unless you're ranging a sheet of tinfoil or something as reflective... VERY lucky at 1500m actually. I shoot long range and I've actually taken to putting an actual piece of tinfoil on my targets beyond 1000m. And yes... It is a Leica unit. Because it's not great at that range I've also started putting an 18" black strip on my targets so I can double check it via MOA measurements manually.

 

It's not "just" about the laser getting to the target... It's about the sensor being able to pick up the reflected laser light that has been reflected back.

 

 

I'm not trying to say there's no issue here... I'm just saying you don't seem to have a complete grasp on how they actually work or what their limitations actually are. That said :)... I kinda doubt they put a cheap $200 Leica in the KA-50 :).

Edited October 12, 2015 by M1Combat

[Bushmanni]

The issue is not the range of range finding but the accuracy of it.

[Flagrum]

The issue is not the range of range finding but the accuracy of it.

The issue is not the accuracy of the ranged target/object but the behaviour of the system when you move the spot when not lasing anymore.

 

But there are several factors that might or might not play a role here - and afaik all of them were already discussed ad nauseam ... without coming to an broadly accepted conclusion.

 

Example: if you lase in a flat angle (i.e. 10 m hover at a target 8 km away), the smallest amount you can slew the pipper will result in a big change in (calculated) range. Now add terrain features that the Shkval might or might not take into account (terrain database? from Abris? How precise is it?).

 

And now imagine you had your laser pointed at the turret of a tank, the laser gives you the exact range - but only at that exact spot you are aiming at. But the Shkval does not know anything about tanks - mathematically it just points at a point on the ground behind the tank (theoretical range > actual measured range). And now you start to slew the Shkval in your wobbly helo ...

[Ashilta]

And now imagine you had your laser pointed at the turret of a tank, the laser gives you the exact range - but only at that exact spot you are aiming at. But the Shkval does not know anything about tanks - mathematically it just points at a point on the ground behind the tank (theoretical range > actual measured range). And now you start to slew the Shkval in your wobbly helo ...

 

Ho hum. And there was me thinking that laser range finders worked by bouncing a laser off a target. To my knowledge, the Russians have not yet perfected a laser that can get through a tank...

[Flagrum]

Ho hum. And there was me thinking that laser range finders worked by bouncing a laser off a target. To my knowledge, the Russians have not yet perfected a laser that can get through a tank...

The "virtual" laser beam then. The laser beam is reflected off the target, but if that target would not be there, the beam would hit the ground a good amount (depending on the slant angle of course) behind the point where the target is/was.

 

If the laser is not lasing and actively measuring the distance to an object, the Shkval does not know that there is something in a certain distance. It has to rely on other sources of information, i.e. a model of the terrain (simplified mathematical [pythargoras? ;o) or perhaps more detailled like the abris map data). But that model does not contain tanks or other objects. So if you slew the reticle off the position where the Shkval "knows" that there is an object (because it was lased before), it can now only asume that it is now looking at the terrain according to how it is modeled in the Shkvals computer - i.e. looking several (dozend, hundred, etc.) meters further, even if you had slewn the reticle only 1 cm horizontally (for you and me still "on target").

[dimitriov]

Yes but on the track I provided you, there were no targets, I just aimed at ground and mountains, obtaining between 500 meters and 10 km of variation.

 

At this level, there is nothing to say about it except that there is somewhere an issue in the code. (Terrain ? Shkval itself ?)

 

Ka-50 is made to attack at relatively high speed its targets, releasing rockets and canon, they'd never accept a system whith such error level.

 

i mean. When I aim at the mountain, there is the sky behind the mountain. So, when I move my shkval, it should, in the worse case, think that I'm aiming at the sky, and give me a 99.9 km distance. There it goes from 12 km, then goes down meters after meters to 0 ! ^^ Staying objective, it's not normal ! :D

 

Nicolas

Edited October 13, 2015 by dimitriov

[martinistripes]

I'm old enough buddy.

 

Old enough to wear big boy pants?

 

Why don't you quietly shove off, fanboy.

 

Yes, I'm a fan of Eagle Dynamics. They gave me DCS World for free. They gave me 2 aircraft for free in which I've had hours of fun. And for the price of a regular game (that I might complete in 10 - 15 hours and throw to one side), I got THE most realistic PC combat helicopter sim and free updates for the last 6 years. If ED packed their bags and left us all today, I've had my moneys worth. There's nothing wrong in making polite requests for certain features or fixes, but spitting your dummy out and stomping your feet? ...Really?

 

Some peoples expectations of others just boggles my mind. :huh:

[whitehot]

Now you will not notice any difference on the IT-23 Monitor because the EO Camera of the Shkval and the IT-23s monitors Camera are 2 Different Cameras.

One is Electro optic the other one is TV.

 

In very rare situations the Color filter helps to get a TA on screen in Low light or Bad weather Conditions. But like i have written its that rare (happend to me two times it did make a difference in 6 Years while just testing sometimes) that it is not really a help and not really worth a tweak on that rotary.

 

Are you stating that the color filter works on a different camera from the one outputing video to the Kamov monitor and hence we can't see what effect it does, but we know that it does some effect? It's rather weird.

 

Also, can you elaborate on what difference there is between an Electro-Optic camera and a TV one?

[fastfreddie]

Not sure if this belongs here or not but I've recently started playing again after several years absence. I'm getting the target locked in range with the "c" coming up but after I fire the missile travels about 1km then dives into the ground. Sometimes it works ... sometimes it takes 3 shots to work correctly so maybe its my fault. Any suggestions?

[mvsgas]

Not sure if this belongs here or not but I've recently started playing again after several years absence. I'm getting the target locked in range with the "c" coming up but after I fire the missile travels about 1km then dives into the ground. Sometimes it works ... sometimes it takes 3 shots to work correctly so maybe its my fault. Any suggestions?

 

Missile is not seeing the laser from the aircraft, loosing track and going dumb. Try to check for drift moving your aircraft.

[DaveRindner]

all light 'bounces' off a target, except that part of visible and near visible, and IR, frequencies that are absorbed by material, being lased.

Lasers spot using Pulse Repetition Frequency. Like a strobelight combined with Morse code. Each PRF has a number. That number is briefed during mission brief, and is unique to each lasing asset on the battlefield. So the guided weapon looks for bright spot (hit by laser) that has PRF that is assigned to launch platform. The laser spoter can be self-designated, off-board sensor(drone), or JTAC, or field improvised laser designator/spotter. This allows target discrimination and selection, and greatly reduces chance that weapon will lock to different spot (lased by another asset).

Spot lasers operate mainly in IR and nearIR spectrum, and can even hop PRFs randomly to prevent target from knowing it is being lased. They are too weak to cause damage to equipment, but are a eye hazzard. This makes them portable with long lasting battery.

[Reaper6]

Not sure if this belongs here or not but I've recently started playing again after several years absence. I'm getting the target locked in range with the "c" coming up but after I fire the missile travels about 1km then dives into the ground. Sometimes it works ... sometimes it takes 3 shots to work correctly so maybe its my fault. Any suggestions?

 

This generally happens when you have laser burnout (around 300 seconds of use). You are still able to range targets, but the laser will not stay on more than a few seconds. Try looking at the laser time on the left side of the HUD. Also if there is a power line, building, something like that the laser might be hitting that instead of the actual target even though you have the actual target locked.

 

Reaper6

[mvsgas]

all light 'bounces' off a target, except that part of visible and near visible, and IR, frequencies that are absorbed by material, being lased.

Lasers spot using Pulse Repetition Frequency. Like a strobelight combined with Morse code. Each PRF has a number. That number is briefed during mission brief, and is unique to each lasing asset on the battlefield. So the guided weapon looks for bright spot (hit by laser) that has PRF that is assigned to launch platform. The laser spoter can be self-designated, off-board sensor(drone), or JTAC, or field improvised laser designator/spotter. This allows target discrimination and selection, and greatly reduces chance that weapon will lock to different spot (lased by another asset).

Spot lasers operate mainly in IR and nearIR spectrum, and can even hop PRFs randomly to prevent target from knowing it is being lased. They are too weak to cause damage to equipment, but are a eye hazzard. This makes them portable with long lasting battery.

 

That's cool , but the 9K121 “Vikhr” does not look at the target, it simply follows the laser until impact. No "budy lasing", no other laser designation can be used except for the launching aircraft/vehicle. Laser codes on the KA-50 are set by ground crew so only three choices for the pilot, etc. Page 3-5 to 3-8 on the manual talks about the "Vikhr".