Malaysian airlines 777 crashed in Ukraine

[Aginor]

Dunno. Maybe we can build a timeline....

 

All times in German time (GMT+2)

 

Ok, so the Su-25 thing was reported in German media around 13:00

Lost contact to MH-17 was reported 17:36

The AN-26 thing was reported 17:50

 

Everything as far as I can tell, I didn't search optimally yet.

 

EDIT: And of course the Su-25 incident isn't closely related to the 777 and/or An-26 incidents. It just shows the separatists were shooting at planes, and hte Ukrainian army used planes that day. To put things into perspective.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aginor

[RIPTIDE]

Wouldn't surprise me if the black box, found by separatists, would "disappear". The plane was traveling west to east (over Ukrainian territory for a long distance), so it would be surprising to me if the Ukrainians shot it.

Flight 1812. Ukrainians have already shot down an airline before.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[Emu]

How does a Boeing 777 provoke a SAM system? By turning the weather radar on?

By flying over an area that's subject to ground attack.

 

Ignoring all finger-pointing wrt the conflict and simply accepting the fact that one existed, there's no way any civilian air traffic should have been going through that area.

[Scrim]

I don't understand why there should be much speculation about who did it. Occam's razor: An idiot who had positively no idea what he was doing decided to shoot down an airliner, because it flew into "his sky", and as a result will one day sooner or later have to answer to someone just why he reckoned killing ~300 civilians was a good thing to do.

[Aginor]

EDIT@ RIPTIDE:

Actually I wouldn't trust Wiki here too much.

AFAIK only one single source claims that some official whose name isn't reported admitted it was shot down, while both Russian and American experts say it is impossible because the plane was too far away from the SAM sites that were active that day, and the missile had an IFF that prevents it from hitting a civil plane.

 

So maybe it is true, maybe not. The source is fishy.

 

 

@Scrim: You just can't rule anything out this early. I tend to agree with you, but we have seen incidents where the most likely didn't happen.

[otto]

aljazeera : "A Russian jet has shot down a Ukrainian SU-25 attack plane over the east of Ukraine " 17 Jul 2014 11:35

[Emu]

I don't understand why there should be much speculation about who did it. Occam's razor: An idiot who had positively no idea what he was doing decided to shoot down an airliner, because it flew into "his sky", and as a result will one day sooner or later have to answer to someone just why he reckoned killing ~300 civilians was a good thing to do.

The reason why is fairly obvious. Planes were attacking them, it was a plane, they didn't know it was a passenger plane. It's super-unlikely that anyone has shot down a passenger plane deliberately. It's a move unlikely to win hearts and minds.

[ALDEGA]

Flight 1812. Ukrainians have already shot down an airline before.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[Aginor]

@otto: Thanks! 11:35 in which time zone?

Also the Russians say it was a SAM, not one of their planes.

[RIPTIDE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

What relevance does that have to MH17?

[RIPTIDE]

aljazeera : "A Russian jet has shot down a Ukrainian SU-25 attack plane over the east of Ukraine " 17 Jul 2014 11:35

 

Basically UKR aircraft are being dropped out of the sky with manpads at a huge rate. UKR authorities deny it, then following day blame the neighbour for the same loss.

[ericoh]

Oh lord this is starting toi become one giant uninformed fest. Please read into the thing entirely.... wow.....

[wasserfall]

The aircraft was flying in open airspace, many people died, this has to have consequences!

I'm Dutch and very upset about it, not yet clear how many Dutch passengers were on board.

But it's a tragedy for everyone onboard an their relatives, regardless their nationality

 

rip

[NineLine]

We need to pull it back a bit guys... lets not go down any dark paths, just talk about what we really know and avoid the politics of it, please....

[Aginor]

What relevance does that have to MH17?

 

I think he wants to say that it would not be the first time an airliner is shot down by military. Both the US and Russia and maybe Ukraine have done it before.

[ericoh]

The aircraft was flying in open airspace, many people died, this has to have consequences!

I'm Dutch and very upset about it, not yet clear how many Dutch passengers were on board.

But it's a tragedy for everyone onboard an their relatives, regardless their nationality

 

rip

 

Yet it has happend quiet a few times on accident, there were no real consequences in those past cases. Who do you wanna blame anyway? The guy on the trigger will get the heat. Nobody else.

[RIPTIDE]

I think he wants to say that it would not be the first time an airliner is shot down by military. Both the US and Russia and maybe Ukraine have done it before.

Oh right, ok. Well, it's possible that either the Militia or the Government forces accidentally shot it down at this stage.

[Falcon_S]

I did not say it did not happen, but... :huh:

 

Is it not strange that lately accidents have just Malaysian airliners? (370 and now 777)

 

Is it not strange that airliner to be directed to the war zone? Who is directed it there? Directed exactly at BUK commanded by Strelkov?

 

I'm afraid that is placed, planned and designed for us and will likely serve as a justification for something scarier.

[Aginor]

Nah, there were lots of air lines flying over that part of Ukraine all the time.

 

EDIT: Also if you fly to south east asia you just fly over Ukraine since it is the shortest distance. So air lines from there have a higher chance of being in that air space.

EDIT2: Here's a tool. Just enter two ICAO codes, like EHAM-WMKK, then you see the shortest path. http://gc.kls2.com/

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aginor

[PondLife]

To my mind, regardless of what happened, the only ones to blame are Malaysian Airlines for flying over an active war zone where planes were being shot down, and a fairly similar aircraft had been shot down at >21,000ft just a few days prior.

 

Eurozone control had this airspace open, also this is the common corridor for Asia bound flights to fly down, you can't blame the airline for flying the assigned route under ATC direction. Ukraine should really have closed that airspace but I don't think anyone thought Russia or the separatists Ukraine would shoot down an airliner.

[SkateZilla]

One of the Passengers took a pic of the plane before boarding and posted on social media with an Ironic caption...

 

Not gonna post here as it's not tasteful in hindsight of what has happened., but it should be all over the place by now.

[Emu]

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

One of the Passengers took a pic of the plane before boarding and posted on social media with an Ironic caption...

 

Not gonna post here as it's not tasteful in hindsight of what has happened., but it should be all over the place by now.

Saw that ... unbeknownst to him he was joking about his own death. Sad and sickening news. Hoping that whoever did this awaits severe punishment (and not just the guy who "pushed the button"). Edited July 17, 2014 by Hans-Joachim Marseille

[Emu]

Eurozone control had this airspace open, also this is the common corridor for Asia bound flights to fly down, you can't blame the airline for flying the assigned route under ATC direction. Ukraine should really have closed that airspace but I don't think anyone thought Russia or the separatists Ukraine would shoot down an airliner.

I don't really accept that. Anyone involved in letting planes fly through that area is legally culpable. Maybe the blame lies with Eurozone control but someone should be held accountable for the decision and the undue risk taken with human lives.

[Aginor]

Air lines also fly over Iraq these days (despite of the ISIL) and over Afghanistan as well. In both countries there are people who have access to SAMs.

I think they are fairly confident that those guys either won't shoot at civil planes or don't have SAMs better than MANPADS.