50 cal Ballistics/Aircraft Damage Model Questions/Concerns

[NineLine]

Your solution isnt historically correct either, so I am not sure why you are getting all defensive about it... We know the AI flies perfectly and dosnt have the same complex systems that player controlled planes have, but I still have little issue bringing them down fairly quickly.

[Narushima]

I'm not being defensive. I asked you a legitimate question. I would like to find out why there's such a big discrepancy between AI damage models between different people.

 

I would like to know it it's because of how people perceive the damage model of if there's an actual difference on how damage is applied on different computers.

[NineLine]

I doubt the DM is applied differently between different computers... if I start firing too soon, or when I am not close enough, I will have troubles, but when I get in that sweet spot, most times it shreds the AI fairly quickly.... I am not saying it doesnt need improvement... fuel should leak, motors should be killed, smoke needs to match up to oil or fuel leaking, etc... but its very playable and the AI is very beatable...

[nervousenergy]

I doubt the DM is applied differently between different computers... if I start firing too soon, or when I am not close enough, I will have troubles, but when I get in that sweet spot, most times it shreds the AI fairly quickly.... I am not saying it doesnt need improvement... fuel should leak, motors should be killed, smoke needs to match up to oil or fuel leaking, etc... but its very playable and the AI is very beatable...

I don't think anyone would assert that AI isn't beatable... the only time I've lost against him is when I screw up and ram him when he hammerheads. Even when I make a mistake and overshoot him he never gets a shot off, as he doesn't seem willing to compromise his perfect aerodynamic stance to get guns on target. A human will yaw out of coordination or risk a stall if he sees a good opportunity to get hits, and it seems the AI never wants to do this.

 

The issue is squarely with the damage model. I concede that the AI literally can't play by complex damage rules given the simplified flight model, but the overall survivability of a gun pass should be reduced dramatically for both human and AI planes. There are precious few places on a P-51 where a 20mm can blow a fist-sized hole through it and the plane not suffer catastrophic damage to one or more systems. The Dora could likely take quite a few more 50 caliber holes, but still not nearly as many as it can take now, and those 6 guns put out one heck of a lot more bullets.

 

Not sure how the AI side can improved, though, without simply lowering the hit point threshholds. In a perfect world the AI would use the PFM (and I'd like to see that as an option in the future if you have the processing capability to spare, especially for a one-on-one), and suffer degradation of flight ability as damage was applied. Perhaps the simple flight model can be tweaked for damage without increasing computing complexity a lot. Limit the AI's ability to incur Gs if the wings are holed, for example.

 

Visual damage indications, more dramatic flight model effects, and enhanced gun lethality would all be on my wish list.

 

Note that these criticisms in no way indicate any terminal dissatisfaction with DCS. The flight model, overall feel of flight, and graphics engine (even on the current old one) are so good I look forward every day to getting to play. It's just that when you've got it good, you can't help but want it better. :thumbup:

[msalama]

...you can't help but want it better. :thumbup:

 

+1

 

But I agree, seems to need some more work still.

[NineLine]

And it has been acknowledged by ED that the DM needs some TLC.

[msalama]

...the DM needs some TLC.

 

Yeah? Great :)

[USARStarkey]

And it has been acknowledged by ED that the DM needs some TLC.

 

Visually or functionally?

[sobek]

Both.

[Chief1942]

Hey, good to hear they are aware of the problems and are willing to make the required adjustments. Should be fixed in "a couple of weeks";)

 

On a side note, it must be a real PITA trying to address all the niggley issues we keep coming up with. Not a problem with some modules as we accept that they are in the "Beta" phase, but for final release modules, these things should get their attention in short order.

[USARStarkey]

Both.

 

Well that is good to hear.

[Schmidtfire]

You can make a trigger that makes the AI plane explode after a certain damage threshold. Makes it much more realistic. Check it out in the mission editor.

 

How do I implement this?

[nick10]

Awesome. A more detailed damage model and proper effect of guns and cannon is essential if the whole WW2 path being taken byED is to work.

[Zilch]

I was getting frustrated with the campaign mission where you shoot down the two Hinds. I usually can down one of them, and the second one is left flying since I run out of ammo.

 

I finally gave up and turned on unlimited ammo for an experiment. Number one goes down with about 100 shots.

 

Number two took eight hundred and forty eight 50 caliber slugs at very close range (filling my entire front panel) before it fell from the sky.

 

That's almost twice as much ammo as the P-51 carries. Something's up...I know the damage models for AI opponents are odd, but damn...848? I can't think of any aircraft that could withstand that.

 

Let's hope the aforementioned TLC comes soon...

 

 

EDIT: Yeah, I know, my aim was horrible, as was my landing.

SERIOUSLY HOW MANY SHOTS DOES IT TAKE.trk

Edited December 17, 2014 by Zilch

[Art-J]

You're not the first one, who did similar observations. Sith suggested after a similar post of mine, that the DM might be hit-points-based, with an aircraft divided into sections, which require x number of hits to be "killed". When the section is "killed", you can pump it with as many tons of lead as you want - it's already "dead", so further shooting won't make any difference. We're not sure if that's the case, but it might be.

 

Yeah, I know, sounds like an abysmally stupid algorithm, but until any major DM rework happens for DCS 2.0, we're stuck with the old code. The only suggestion from me is - attack these Hinds (or any choppers) from top. If You hit'em somewhere in the rotor head and engines area, they light up like zippos in no time.

[Zilch]

I was thinking that, as well, like I was hitting an already dead hitbox, probably the cargo area or something. I would have thought from my angle, though, that I'd have a good shot at separating the tail rotor like with the first kill.

 

Even with that algorithm, it would still make some kind of sense if the damage that would have gone to the dead hitbox gets transferred to an adjacent one. Then again, I'm no programmer by any means, so what sounds like a simple solution to me might require a complete re-write for all I know. :)

 

Anyway, I don't want to sound whiny...I'm having tons of fun with this and will continue. Just a funny observation is all, maybe it's useful to someone.

 

EDIT: My approach from below and behind was intended to avoid detection, because prior attempts to shoot these guys resulted in them turning on a dime and shredding me like an airborne omni-directional AAA battery. I'm not sure how AI detection goes, but I figured if I came in low from their six, they wouldn't notice until I'd hit them at least. Maybe jumping from 6 high would work as well, with better Pk when you hit them.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Zilch

[NineLine]

I'll check out your track later if I get time. Thanks for including it.

[Zilch]

Anything for science...including making public my horrible aim. :)

[Art-J]

My approach from below and behind was intended to avoid detection, because prior attempts to shoot these guys resulted in them turning on a dime and shredding me like an airborne omni-directional AAA battery. I'm not sure how AI detection goes, but I figured if I came in low from their six, they wouldn't notice until I'd hit them at least. Maybe jumping from 6 high would work as well, with better Pk when you hit them.

 

I'm glad I completed this mission in 1.2.8 era, when they were glitched and didn't shoot back for some reason :D.