Mi-8 main rotorhead and tail rotor animation

[Hueyman]

I'm wondering when this will be implemented in this module. Every single DCS branded product got all their control surfaces moving properly according to flight controls inputs, but the Mi-8 stay rock solid...

 

Rudder pedals don't visually move the tail rotor blades pitch

Collective doesn't move the swashplate up and down, and so pushrods don't actuate the pitch of all blades simultaneously

Cyclic don't actuate swashplate and so, no rotations around blade grip spindle shaft ...

 

I know you guys are aware of this " lack " as it's like if an airplane would not see its ailerons or elevator moving with stick moves... kinda huge !

 

But I noticed the animation of blades themselves for coning, dropping and articulation of the fully animated rotorhead is definitely there ( when the ship crashed and is on it's side, you can see that each blade grip rotates around the flapping axis...

 

So, will we ever see this done ?

[Sceptre]

The rotor heads are animated, just not with the engine off :)

 

Though not sure if it's because of the lack of hydraulic pressure, or just a bug.

[Hueyman]

It depends what you mean by rotorhead ...

 

I don't mean the whole rotor assembly spinning of course ... but each mechanical parts like swashplate, pushrods, blade grips and so on ... Like on the Huey and KA-50 after all

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

The rotor heads are animated, just not with the engine off :)

 

Though not sure if it's because of the lack of hydraulic pressure, or just a bug.

 

This actually can be true. I observed that the Cyclic is not moving in the Mi-8 while I stir my joystick around. Could be an issue of hydraulics not functioning when the engines are off. Or maybe just a small bug.

[Hueyman]

No this has nothing to do with hydraulic... it's just that Mi-8 rotors animations isn't finished at all for the moment ( thus being in Bêta )

 

I don't know the Mi-8 intimately but even without hydraulic pressure, as long as the stick moves in the heli there should be small movements on the rotorhead mechanism, even with a small travel, because of the direct linkage mechanism. For the moment there is nothing visually between the collective/cyclic input and the actual movements on the rotorhead, as well as nothing between anti torque pedals and tail rotor ...

 

Hope Belsimtek has this on their TO DO list for next Mi-8 update ;-)

[AlphaOneSix]

Easiest fix would be to prevent movement of the controls at all until sufficient hydraulic pressure is built up. Obviously I'm not sure how the internals work in-game, just the real thing. It's possible to move the pedals without hydraulic pressure, but only with difficulty. As for the cyclic/collective, no way.

[Hueyman]

This is how it's done too in-sim ! Until hyd. pump generates enough pressure, cyclic and collective are locked ... but things should move afterward and they don't !

[skouras]

what about the throttle movement on UH-1H and RPM?

You have to move the throttle all the way to the left until you see RPM rising!

clearly Belsimtek have a lot of work to do on all modules right now..

 

i wish to keep us updated once a month at least to know what they working on!

[iFoxRomeo]

Again good finding, Hueyman.

 

When the Mi8 hydraulics(main and stand by) have no pressure you can´t move the controls. But with hydraulic pressure the controls move and so should the swashplate do.

 

Maybe this short video demonstrates the problem.

 

Huey: Both, the rotordisc and swashplate tilt.

Mi-8: Only the rotordisc tilts. The swashplate doesn´t.

 

Same with the tailrotor.

Huey: small movement of the control rod

Mi-8: no movement of the control rod

[Raptor9]

Yeah, definitely good find. This might be an example of key differences of rotorcraft design and weight class. There are helos out there like the light MD500 series (AH/MH-6 Little Bird) that have no hydraulic systems.

 

The Bell 206 Jetranger or the OH-58 Kiowa have a hydraulic-assisted flight controls system. You can still muscle the controls around if you loose hydraulic pressure, but it'll probably tire you out after a while, and it's not going to be smooth flying per se.

 

When you get to larger and more complex helicopters with more robust rotor systems, you need hydraulics to move the controls...or they won't. That's a lot of spinning metal to move with just a stick in your hands.

[Snarf]

I find no animations of the rotor swash plates, collective pitch, PCLs or the tail rotor at any point. The blades don't even change pitch, just cone as though the pitch is changing when it in actual fact isn't. Also with the power off you cant move the cyclic, you should be able to. You certainly can in real helicopters even though loads may be a bit heavy. The systems have irreversible valves fitted so that in cases of hydraulic failure they become a solid linkage to allow the crew some control. Mind you the tail rotor should work even if the loads on the main rotor are so excessive that the pilot couldn't work them with out hydraulic power. I think this is just an omission as all this stuff works on the UH-1H. Has there been any indication from Belsimtek that they will fix this?

Edited May 20, 2015 by Snarf

[AlphaOneSix]

You can move the tail rotor pedals without power, but you have to basically stand on them. In order to move the cyclic or collective it requires two people and is very difficult. I have never seen one person able to do it alone.

[wolf5]

On SA330, hydraulic pressure is 175 bar, you can not move the cyclic without hydraulic power.

If you try, you will break some command parts but blades will not move.

I think it should be the same for Mi8.

[AlphaOneSix]

On the Mi-8, you can, in theory, move the controls without hydraulic pressure. I've seen it tried numerous times, but never seen it done successfully.

[Hueyman]

Yes that's one thing guy you're both true about ...

 

But the actual problem is that the current Mi-8 has nothing done regarding flight controls animations, with or without hydraulic press...

 

Tail rotor blades are rock solid, even no flapping hinge anims

 

Main rotor blades droop and coning is absolutely well done, as well as flapping hinge movements ( try to roll the ship upside down, the blades fall by their own gravity against high flapping stops )

 

But nothing regarding swashplate movement ( cyclic or collective ) and the according push rods and AoA change on blade.

 

This really has to be done, It's like if we had an A-10 or any DCS plane with their rudder or ailerons stuck to neutral... while our input has effect in flight.

 

From a definition, they shouldn't be called DCS modules as it's far from " very realistic ". The good side is that it's a matter of a day to animate that for the devs, they just need to be aware we WANT it ;-)

[Focha]

You do realize that the most realistic simulators around the world doesn't even have a 3D model of the aircraft?

 

I am sure you do. But I just wanted to say it anyway.

 

I am a real world helicopter pilot and I have never saw my swash plate move. :) At least when I'm in.

 

Cheers

Edited May 20, 2015 by Focha
Spelling

[Snarf]

As a helicopter enthusiast and engineer, admittedly on AS350s, 206s and UH1s etc and not something as big as the MI8, I would love to see that animation done on the MI8.

 

While a real life pilot may not see these things while flying I am betting that you as well as nearly every other simulation pilot have used F2 to admire your aircraft while flying. Plus I have seen the effects of moving both cyclic and collective from the cockpit with the rotors unpowered as they droop into view and both inputs cause visible pitch changes from the cockpit.

 

The UH1 animation is so good I plan to use it when I next teach helicopters :) Whilst that isn't a motive for them to fix it, it does seem incomplete without it.

[Hueyman]

Yes Focha I realized that ;-) But one of the nice goodies we have in Flight Simulations is, we can fly while looking from every angle how things are actually working and moving, and that is IMHO one of the main features of simming something you even fly IRL...

[wolf5]

@Hueyman

It was for Snarf but I agree with you :) Some love for the Hip

[Raptor9]

From a definition, they shouldn't be called DCS modules as it's far from " very realistic ". The good side is that it's a matter of a day to animate that for the devs, they just need to be aware we WANT it ;-)

 

Addressing your first sentence, Mi-8 is till in BETA. I know, it's been there for over 2.5 years, but still, Belsimtek said they're working on it. Additionally, "very realistic" is a very relative term, one that may be subjective depending on who you ask.

 

Regarding the second point, that is pure speculation. None of us have any idea as to the size or priorities of Belsimtek's coding team. I for one, as a person that knows nothing about code, also have no clue as to what actually goes into animating the articulating components of a rotor system in the current DCS framework. For all we know, Belsimtek is waiting (or needs to wait for some technical reason) for EDGE framework to add such a feature.

 

Even if you are a coder, that's still a pretty broad assumption.

 

EDIT: That sounded a bit harsh and accusative. It wasn't meant that way, just voicing an alternative reasoning.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Raptor9

[Hueyman]

No no, that's not harsh that's your point of view and I must also agree with it ... Of course we don't know what's happening behind the scene, but something sure is that it's not the hardest part in their titan work.

 

They initially did the Huey rotorhead animation wrong ( they corrected it later ) but at least there was some movements of parts. Here there is nothing... Once again, beta or not, it's like if you had a plane with locked controls ( visually ). When you're flying in first person view it doesn't decrease the immersion ( except if you look at control surfaces ) but it's just one of the feature every module ( even other sim's addons ) have, a standard.

[Hueyman]

BST, any news about that scheduled with incoming major 1.5 upgrade ?

[Hueyman]

Saw many great changes in last update, as well as great incoming AI Flight Engineer, but nothing regarding these animations issues.

 

I assume they won't ever be fixed ? Do you realize it's the first DCS module with immobile flight controls surfaces ( Ka-50, UH-1 and all airplanes have moving controls, swashplates, pushrods, swash followers, blade grip rotations etc )

[Hueyman]

Well, according to the latest changelog, this has been finally addressed ;-)

[AlphaOneSix]

Indeed, but you can't move the flight controls without hydraulic power, so the rotors have to be turning....