Mustang - Losing a Wing

[Narushima]

The safe limit for the P-51 was 8G at 8000lb, which is 6,7G at 9600lb (fighter load). Above 6,7G at fighter load plastic deformation could occur. Plastic deformation is cumulative, so the more you abuse the wing the more it becomes deformed, until it finally snaps.

 

The ultimate load limit at fighter weight would be 10G (6,666*1,5=9,999). Exceed this and the wing is guaranteed to come off.

 

[BitMaster]

Let's ask it the other way around:

 

Was it usual for P-51's to loose a wing when chasing 190's in WWII ?

 

Was it simply unable to follow the 190's flight path into extremes the P-51 wouldn't handle.

 

 

 

Time will tell how it will balance out, the epic battle: Dora vs Pony

[Solty]

Woooow. 8000lb is 3629kg. That means that it is very low (around 10%) fuel load with NO AMMO!!!

 

Anyone has any documents on the Fw190's Max G loads?

[Narushima]

The Dora had 6,2G limit at full fighter load (4270kg), but the Germans used a higher safety factor (80% vs the allied 50%) so it's ultimate load was 11,2G.

 

By American standards the Dora would have a limit of 7,5G at fighter weight.

[ARM505]

I still can't believe that an average person (not an athlete) can pull sudden 12Gs at high speed without hydraulicly boosted control surfaces, which I might add P-51D or Fw190D9 do not have. In F-86, F-15... sure. P-51? Realy? I believe that this is not our pilot, right?: http://www.phootoscelebrities.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/arnold-schwarzenegger-pictures.jpg

 

It is completely different to any other sim that I have played. Without calibrating the joystick I can rip my wings off without even pulling more than half of my stick.

 

You don't need hydraulics to allow flap type control surfaces to generate enough force to pull high G's - they can be aerodynamically 'boosted' as well.

 

Example:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/fxd_wing/images3/8.jpg

 

The bit that extends in front of the hinge axis (marked 'horn balance' in the pic above) will not only place weight ahead of the aerodynamic center of pressure which helps control things like flutter, but also creates an aerodynamic load that actually assists in control inputs, helping lower the 'stick force per G'.

 

In real aircraft (with direct linkages to the controls at least) you can clearly feel the controls stiffening up as airspeed increases - often it feels like only pressure needs to be exerted on the stick/yoke to make a change, as opposed to real deflection (of course you are deflecting it, just not much at all). Sims struggle in this regard as the feel just isn't there, often resulting in what you feel - it's seemingly ridiculously easy to generate high G forces, as the 'stick force per G' in sims changes dramatically with changing conditions, unlike reality where it stays more constant (not constant of course, just more so) - note I said 'stick force per G', not 'stick deflection' of course. At lower airspeeds, the same force would generate a much higher stick deflection.

 

IMHO.

Edited August 13, 2014 by ARM505

[Foul Ole Ron]

Did you have hits in your plane?

What was the GW of the plane? Please keep in mind that maximum safe g (not failure!) will be 8000/weight*8 for the Mustang.

 

Ok I checked this just now and the GW at the start of the mission was 9550lbs which would make my maximum safe g = 6.7g.

 

Looking at the flight I did a series of 5.2-5.7 maneuvers early on, then a series of 4g maneuvers followed by a 6.9g maneuver 9 mins into the flight which caused my wing to snap off. Not sure how much fuel I would have burned off in 9 mins - probably not all that much so I guess I breached the maximum safe g limit by a little.

 

Would have expected that there'd be a bit more tolerance built in though or was I just unlucky that time maybe? I'll do some more tests this evening and check it out - thanks for the additional info on the weight and max safe g.

[Angel101]

Well, there is something strange... in last mision that we flew Dora vs Mustang, four teammates broke their wings following one Dora. We don´t remember to got that problem in Mustang vs Mustang fights.

[Buzpilot]

I'm not sure how it was in WW2, but nowadays a (nato) fighter should handle 150% of max G's without breaking up. It would probably been taken out of use, or if possible structural replacements.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Buzpilot

[Kwiatek]

Im not sure but suspect that P-51 loosing wings too fast casue there is not implemented safetly factor - 1.3 - 1.5 more then maximum load factor ( +8/-4)

 

So actually P-51 in DCS broke at maximum load factor not at ultimate load factor.

[DieHard]

Yes... YoYo already told me about that factor in an other thread. I am devoted to my P-51... love this plane. But there is so much said about it that it is hard to see which is propaganda and which is pure facts.

 

If you would look at other Sims and flight forums you would see that people see P-51 as a flying propaganda of awesomness that is just, how one of the Alpha testers of other sim said," Honda civic of the sky". Implying that its maneuvrablity is below average.

Some mosquito pilot said that P-51 is less agile than the mosquito itself...

 

I know that it tries to translate the long stick lenght into a short stick... but...ehh. Never mind. I just find it wierd that is all.

 

But... if that is a thing with a mustang... does dora feel different with stick forces and actualy stiffens after reaching some speeds? (I know that it won't be like 109 as it has an awesome elevator... but just gets harder to pull... a little?)

 

EDIT: ...after beeing told so many times that I am a stupid allied fanboy and the 51 is "freedumb" fighter... I can't have rest when I hear something that "positive" about a 51.

 

With proper joystick setting the thing is controlable, but you won't hear approval from other simmers for this FM.

 

The same guy that was the brains behind the P-51 also built the SR-71.

[DieHard]

I'm not sure how it was in WW2, but nowadays a (nato) fighter should handle 150% of max G's without breaking up. It would probably been taken out of use, or if possible structural replacements.

 

What aluminum alloys were being used in WWII?

 

Was TIG Welding being used, then?

 

How was the wing built?

 

How did they attach a P-51's wing to the fuselage?

 

Where did the structural failure occur and how?

 

After having welded on the job for 2 years I took some advanced training in the classroom. About 1980 I met a fellow older classmate that had welded the USA "Liberty" troop ships during WWII. Sometimes, because of scheduling demands, shortcuts were taken, according to this guy. Talking about steel plate welding, not aluminum, instead of doing the job properly by building up deep welds in a layering technique, stick welding rods were placed in the joint and then welding over creating a cold-joint situation. The guy always wondered if "his" ships made it through the war.

 

I wonder in real life production of anything if similar stuff occurs?

Edited August 22, 2014 by DieHard

[gavagai]

In a real aircraft you *feel* how hard you are pulling. The DCS high g-grunting sound is neat, but it doesn't play in time to prevent me from losing a wing; we don't get the video/audio cues necessary to realize what is happening. I'm often zoomed way in with periscope-view in order to follow a bandit, so I can't see the ASI to know how fast I am going.

[MiloMorai]

As this is an early P-51D, it is nice to see that the real world undercarriage uplock failure is being modeled.

[BitMaster]

This YT Link "Wings of Steel", german version, features Chuck Yeager as a P-51 Pilot over Germany around 1944.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz7e9qLyTWU

 

Hear what he says about the general sturdiness of a P-51....and the rear fuselage tank LoL

 

 

 

This needs to be looked into ( the wing, not the rear tank ! )

 

Bit

[Solty]

This YT Link "Wings of Steel", german version, features Chuck Yeager as a P-51 Pilot over Germany around 1944.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz7e9qLyTWU

 

Hear what he says about the general sturdiness of a P-51....and the rear fuselage tank LoL

 

 

 

This needs to be looked into ( the wing, not the rear tank ! )

 

Bit

Can you say what he says? I don't know German, I am sure that it will have voice-over over it.

 

I think I one this document on YT... but it is no longer available. I know what he says about the tank and it is modeled in the game. But I don't hear anything about the wings.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Solty

[Random]

Rarely lose a wing if you are smooth on the controls in my experience. But It does seem to me they come off a little too readily!

[BitMaster]

Can you say what he says? I don't know German, I am sure that it will have voice-over over it.

 

I think I one this document on YT... but it is no longer available. I know what he says about the tank and it is modeled in the game. But I don't hear anything about the wings.

 

 

Well, they said this in general ( They = the aces of 357rd with Chuck and Colleagues ).

 

- The P-51 was tough in taking aerodynamical punishment

- it was forgiving and spoke out a warning before stalling nose down

- they MAINLY fought 109's as those were tasked to engage fighter escort while the 190's went for

the bombers. So the main opponent in war history was the 109 according to them.

- Most Aces in a P-51 ( 8 out of 10 ) got shot down by ground fire ( OIL COOLER !! )

EDIT: - THE REAR FUSELAGE TANK...LoL they mentioned that one to a great extend... fuel it up and you know why

 

He never mentioned loosing a wing...haha

 

 

I bet that you can find the original english version on YT. It's worth watching it to gain some more background about the P-51 and how it was used during 1944-45 over Germany and France.

 

It also tells us a lot about the strategy they used and what worked and what not. The tide went

back and forth with tactical changes, new airplanes and versions and general outcome of the war.

 

I really liked that they also had Luftwaffe Aces speaking, Rall and others, and they put clear why German Aces topped out with 200-300 kills and US Fighter Pilots topped out at 1/10th and were still called Aces. He said, with 5 kills you didn't even get a free beer ! PERIOD Tough Times

They had to fight all the way, either a wooden cross or an Iron Cross, the only two ways to get out. While serving many years germans had enough time to score that many kills, especially over Russia with their untrained Pilots early in the war. Allied Pilots made 50 flights and were then sent home. It's tough to achieve 250 kills in 50 Sorties... that's the simple reason why german numbers are by a 10 fold higher than Aliied Aces.

 

Back to topic... I am confident that the P-51 will be overlooked for the next update.

Until then, fly gentle and don't pull like nuts :)

 

Bit

Edited August 25, 2014 by BitMaster