Anyone has p51 online dogfight vs Dora?

[[DBS]TH0R]

Managed to jump a Fw190 at some 18000ft last night. My tanks were running dry as it happened. Maneuvered into not one but two perfect firing positions only to miss horribly. Then he dove for the deck and called in for some help. As Murphy's law dictates, this is precisely when my tanks ran completely dry due to max power and higher fuel consumption. I ended up ditching while being strafed by two 190s.

 

Left the server and went to practice offline gunnery. Without the K-14. Good old deflection shooting should be mastered before even trying to use the gyro sight. And I used to know how to shoot back in IL2 days.

 

 

I don't think the FW190 can outrun the mustang in a straight line ... or least I haven't been able too. Once I lose my speed/altitude advantage its time to get out of there in the FW190. If I have a mustang on my tail and hes barely out of accurate gunnery range I can usually escape by starting a shallow to medium climb. I'm not sure if the FW190 can outdive the Mustang but it does it's not by enough because the only time I've out dove a P51 was from about 12k ft. I think he either pulled up to keep from snapping his wings or he didn't want to follow me that low. Now FW190 gets into serious trouble when Mustangs have a speed and altitude advantage because they can do most of the maneuvers that the FW can and some of them they are better at it. Serious evasive maneuvers are needed in these situations but the good pilots usually know how to overcome them or are working in pairs (or more).

 

Better acceleration will make for a decent separation so that Mustang pilot can not get into firing position.

Edited August 19, 2014 by T}{OR

[Maximus_G]

The correct historical opponent of the FW190 D-9 with MW50 giving 2100 PS is a 72" Mustang.

A small OT question - could you guys point me to that fuel discussion? I want to read something on when the 150 grade fuel did become the standard option.

[MiloMorai]

A small OT question - could you guys point me to that fuel discussion? I want to read something on when the 150 grade fuel did become the standard option.

 

This should get you started,

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

[Pandacat]

Dudes. Let some online plays recorded. I really want to see how P51s fare against D9 in a MP settings. Good or bad stories are fine.

[DieHard]

+1 Many reports out there stating that IDing an enemy was even harder, at times waiting till they were right up on the aircraft before being able to get a positive ID.

 

"My P-38 leaped ahead as though kicked by a mule. The cutoff angle was good and I could see I would be coming in behind the bogeys in short order. I still didn’t have a positive ID, but every instinct told me they had to be German. Instinct is no good when you’re coming up behind a target with a 20mm and four .50 caliber guns armed and ready to shoot.

 

It is particularly no good when your adrenaline is pumping. Patience, patience. I wanted those shadowy shapes to be Focke-Wulf 190s! My instincts told me they were Jerries, not a couple of Jugs out of 9th Air Force. Please, bogeys, please turn just a little. Give me an aspect where I can get a positive ID on you.

 

I’m closing fast. There isn’t much time left. I pressed rudder and slid the pipper onto the trailing aircraft’s left wing. Another second and suddenly I could see the Iron Cross on the side of the lead plane’s fuselage. No time left now. I squeezed the trigger. The wingman’s bird lit up with strikes, spewed heavy smoke, rolled inverted, and hit the ground with a huge explosion."

 

I have Chuck Yeager's first and second books. His first book is about his flying days. He said he had keen eyesight, better than the average pilot. He said he could see the enemy way off as just a dot, before the enemy saw him and he set up the engagement to his best advantage accordingly.

 

But he had a better level playing field in real life not dictated by differences in MP setup due to graphic cards, frame rates, lag, difference in controllers, and whether he was running DSL, cable internet, or fiber optic feed at different rates of various upload and download speeds.

 

Part of my cockpit setup I include a button to zoom way in close. I identify a bogey before I fire at him. The other day flying and getting ready to attack, all the guys I saw were my guys, when I got in closer.

[NineLine]

I would question how he knew it was an enemy when it was just a dot though, or did he, did he set up to his advantage just in case? Obviously he probably wasnt 100% sure it was an enemy to he could ID, unless there are factors involved, based on knowing where friendlies would and wouldnt be, comms, etc....

 

Spotting aircraft in WWII was definitely a skill for sure, some better than others...

 

I have Chuck Yeager's first and second books. His first book is about his flying days. He said he had keen eyesight, better than the average pilot. He said he could see the enemy way off as just a dot, before the enemy saw him and he set up the engagement to his best advantage accordingly.

 

But he had a better level playing field in real life not dictated by differences in MP setup due to graphic cards, frame rates, lag, difference in controllers, and whether he was running DSL, cable internet, or fiber optic feed at different rates of various upload and download speeds.

 

Part of my cockpit setup I include a button to zoom way in close. I identify a bogey before I fire at him. The other day flying and getting ready to attack, all the guys I saw were my guys, when I got in closer.

[DieHard]

It always sounds like P51 slots are pretty tight. There are more stang fliers than D9? I thought P51s has an edge over D9 at 30k?

 

That is exactly the reason why I purchased the Dora couple of days ago was to be able to play when the MP P-51 slots were full or to even the playing field.

 

I get shot down in both aircraft, so I cannot go blaming the plane. If a guy is good at combat he could get kills using a Cessna, LOL!

 

Few guys are found up high fighting on sims online, unless the setup is pre-set forced to fight up high or accompanying a bomber raid. Talking mostly about other sims, but in the DCS Mustang the fights are usually lower. The better combat pilots come in at 20K if you watch a TacView replay.

Edited August 20, 2014 by DieHard

[fastfreddie]

I go up to 3-5k meters in the FW190 but its rare to run across anyone and there really won't be a high altitude opponent for the Mustang till the 109K4 gets here. Even then until the B17 AI is made I don't see many battles happening in the 7000 meter+ range.

 

As far as spotting I'd love to be able to spot a little dot and get rid of the flak that gives away one sides position on MP servers. You may not know what it is but it would be there to investigate.

[Solty]

Most fights are at low alt now...

 

I had a few fights. I wish DCS was able to give me replays that actually work. I always endup with a replay that doesn't work (multiplayer only)

 

What I can say about Dora... It is as fast as the 51 at low alt and it's better accelerating and better climbing and better at diving... and rolling.

 

So all you have is the turn rate and skill...

 

The best fight I had was with a Dora that was around 1500m above me. I made him overcommit and evened the energy status. Killed his engine.

 

All I can recommend is to take 35% of fuel. Gaps between airfields are small anyway, that will give around 45min of cruise time (I think) So you will have plenty of time to kill 2 Doras and go home.

 

I think that MP needs some small dots over planes to get better with spotting. It is even worse than in War Thunder. Realy guys. That is realy bad.

[Pandacat]

Most fights are at low alt now...

 

I had a few fights. I wish DCS was able to give me replays that actually work. I always endup with a replay that doesn't work (multiplayer only)

 

What I can say about Dora... It is as fast as the 51 at low alt and it's better accelerating and better climbing and better at diving... and rolling.

 

So all you have is the turn rate and skill...

 

The best fight I had was with a Dora that was around 1500m above me. I made him overcommit and evened the energy status. Killed his engine.

 

All I can recommend is to take 35% of fuel. Gaps between airfields are small anyway, that will give around 45min of cruise time (I think) So you will have plenty of time to kill 2 Doras and go home.

 

I think that MP needs some small dots over planes to get better with spotting. It is even worse than in War Thunder. Realy guys. That is realy bad.

 

I thought at the current stage of the game, the damage model is limited. It doesn't matter where you hit the guy, it's just X number of hits to kill a plane.

[NineLine]

I thought at the current stage of the game, the damage model is limited. It doesn't matter where you hit the guy, it's just X number of hits to kill a plane.

 

No, there are a number of different hit zones, now the AI doesnt have the same system modelling so its not quite the same there... but its not just one giant hit box.

[Pandacat]

It'll be great if someone can help Solty to solve his video recording issue. He has done a fantastic job recording replays and I always enjoyed his youtubes.

[blkspade]

Did something change in the modelling between these aircraft, or did I get better? I used to have the hardest time getting on the AI dora's 6 and if I did he'd often climb away if I did. Not only can I get back there generally easier, but I'm finding myself frequently overtaking him in the climb.

[Art-J]

Depends on which game version you compare the AI to. Indeed, it has been dumbed down quite a bit since 1.2.9...

 

...or maybe the good old virtual Dora pilot changed his ride with virtual MiG-15 pilot, because F-86 flyers say the latter one seems to be capable of pulling off some insane tricks nowadays :D.

[OutOnTheOP]

Dudes. Let some online plays recorded. I really want to see how P51s fare against D9 in a MP settings. Good or bad stories are fine.

 

More complex issue than that. More players own the Mustang, so sometimes the Dora teams are horribly outnumbered and get slaughtered. Sometimes there's 2:1 or even 3:1 advantage on the Dora team... and the Mustangs get slaughtered. And when it's roughly even, the Mustang team (or part of it) often loads up with rockets and bombs to attack ground targets (as the mission sets often require), and when loaded with A2G ordnance, the Mustangs are at a huge disadvantage.

 

That said, I've found that the Mustang gives *generally* about as good as it gets, but I've run into PLENTY of players who, playing the Mustang, have flat-out said "this isn't even fair, the Dora is way easier to get kills in", and I've heard numerous Dora players on teamspeak (when both sides were in the lobby and could hear each other) laughing about how the Dora, below 10K, can disengage at will so easily as to be, in their opinion, "untouchable", when used for pure BnZ.

 

Now, when the Dora pilots commit to a turning fight, it's generally about even. Possibly slight edge to the Mustang... but frankly, I think the comparison is skewed, because the only Dora pilots that commit to a turning fight are rookies, so it's less a comparison of aircraft capabilities, and more of pilot experience (when a pilot continues a flat turning circle for 3-5 revolutions, even while their opponent slowly comes around the circle on them, they obviously have no clue what they're doing). ...or, very rarely, experienced players trying to finish off a hard-to-kill Mustang they have outnumbered will descend into a low-altitude turning fight, when they think there's no other Mustangs around. But then, if they're being surprised, it's not really consequential WHAT aircraft they're in- they're screwed either way.

[DieHard]

I go up to 3-5k meters in the FW190 but its rare to run across anyone and there really won't be a high altitude opponent for the Mustang till the 109K4 gets here. Even then until the B17 AI is made I don't see many battles happening in the 7000 meter+ range.

 

As far as spotting I'd love to be able to spot a little dot and get rid of the flak that gives away one sides position on MP servers. You may not know what it is but it would be there to investigate.

 

That is what i am learning about Merlin's server, I do not get too close to the front line and stay out of the flak. I boom 'n zoom to investigate others that violate the flak rule and keep my speed.

 

My big disadvantage is I have not played on Merlin's server in months and I do not know the maps well, where the enemy is, etc. Guys that fly there frequently, know his maps inside out and how to exploit the enemy's disadvantages!

 

I have also found going after bombing targets alone is just plain stupid. Because the enemy is cruising around, above the target area just waiting for some dope to do the same. The only way to effectively go after bombing/strafing targets is to have a guy or two above, flying cover.

 

In real life, WWII, many miles and hours were flown in fighters and encountering the enemy was relatively rare, unless flying cover for the bombers.

Edited August 22, 2014 by DieHard

[Robo.]

Good pilot will do good in both, the actual planes are fairly balanced imho. It's more about SA and initial position more than about anything else - as it should be. Big factor in casual onlline DFs is also fuel load of the P-51.

 

All in all, MP is great fun for both sides. :)

[OutOnTheOP]

Good pilot will do good in both, the actual planes are fairly balanced imho. It's more about SA and initial position more than about anything else - as it should be. Big factor in casual onlline DFs is also fuel load of the P-51.

 

All in all, MP is great fun for both sides. :)

 

Yes, fuel load is HUGE. If both are at 100%, the Mustang is carrying 850-some pounds (!!!!) of extra fuel. The Dora carries 388 kilograms of fuel at 100%- the Mustang carries the same amount at 53%. Most maps seem to start at 68% for the Mustang (full wing tanks, empty fuselage tank).

 

I recommend 35-40% for the Mustang on most maps. You'll find you accelerate, maneuver, and climb MUCH better, and can, in fact, pretty much climb right with the Dora. If you're doing A2A missions, I would say: consider dropping your ammo load to 80% or so, if you're confident in your marksmanship. That's a lot more weight you can leave at home, and chances are you'll run out of fuel, patience, or airframe before ammo anyhow.

 

If you DO start with a higher fuel fraction, keep in mind that sometimes if you're fighting a guy you just can't seem to get a shot on, you can probably force him to break off (and give you a shot!) simply by staying in the fight long enough. The Dora seems to burn through fuel faster than the Mustang by a considerable margin (makes sense; it's a much less aerodynamically pure fuselage and wing design, and higher horsepower engine= more fuel burn per second; compounded by smaller tanks to start with). On several occasions, I've forced down my opponent just because they didn't have fuel to stay and play. ...not that I'd recommend this as a go-to tactic!

[USARStarkey]

The turn advantage is definitely not a minor detail but personally I'd gladly trade up turning ability for an advantage in acceleration, climb, top speed, duration of max engine output & roll rate. Gives you options to control the fight and decide if you want to be offensive or defensive - even if you get bounced by more than one EA. If you're a turn fighter and get bounced by more than one EA you're in deep trouble - they'll just take it turns to bleed your energy off until you're flopping around and then you're dead. If somebody told me my life depended on the next online fight I wouldn't hesitate in selecting the Dora.

 

Generally I'd agree, but for speed etc to matter you have to have enough of it. The Dora is only about 5mph faster than the 51 at low alt, maybe 10mph medium, and over 20k the mustang begins to be much much faster-over 30mph at 30k.

 

Bottom line is, you have to have a big enough advantage in speed in order to be able to run and control the fight. With the 190 you dont. You can outpace a pony if you start from high speed, and you are outside of gun range, but otherwise you are in trouble. Same with climb, the only why you'll escape in a sustained slow speed climb is if you have significant range between you and the mustang, otherwise your just a slow climbing target who isn't going anywhere fast. If the games ballistics get fixed, this will be even more true. The Dora and the 51 are evenly matched overall, at least down low. Up high its a one sided affair- Pony wins.

[DieHard]

Input your 2 aircraft for comparison:

=======================

http://www.hitechcreations.com/gameinfo/plane-performance

 

The utility allows different values as to differing speed functions and separately, climb rates for each aircraft.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Individual aircraft performance climbing and speed:

================================

P-51D:

=====

http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/P-51D

 

FW 190D-9:

========

http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Fw_190D-9

 

-+-

Because each sim undoubtedly bases their game engine on different values, this info gives a ballpark representation. Altitude seems to be the factor to consider using this info to your best advantage.

 

Other specs:

========

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangtest.html

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190d9test.html

Edited August 22, 2014 by DieHard

[fastfreddie]

Generally I'd agree, but for speed etc to matter you have to have enough of it. The Dora is only about 5mph faster than the 51 at low alt, maybe 10mph medium, and over 20k the mustang begins to be much much faster-over 30mph at 30k.

 

Bottom line is, you have to have a big enough advantage in speed in order to be able to run and control the fight. With the 190 you dont. You can outpace a pony if you start from high speed, and you are outside of gun range, but otherwise you are in trouble. Same with climb, the only why you'll escape in a sustained slow speed climb is if you have significant range between you and the mustang, otherwise your just a slow climbing target who isn't going anywhere fast. If the games ballistics get fixed, this will be even more true. The Dora and the 51 are evenly matched overall, at least down low. Up high its a one sided affair- Pony wins.

 

I've found pretty much all of this to be very true ... don't know what games ballistics needs to be fixed. I'll add that the Mustang has better cockpit visibility, gunsights, and the accuracy of the .50s are much better than the German counterparts especially at medium ranges. Once you use up the ammo in the 20's its also time to rtb because the German 13mm are pretty much useless.

[dooom]

Generally I'd agree, but for speed etc to matter you have to have enough of it. The Dora is only about 5mph faster than the 51 at low alt, maybe 10mph medium, and over 20k the mustang begins to be much much faster-over 30mph at 30k.

 

Bottom line is, you have to have a big enough advantage in speed in order to be able to run and control the fight. With the 190 you dont. You can outpace a pony if you start from high speed, and you are outside of gun range, but otherwise you are in trouble. Same with climb, the only why you'll escape in a sustained slow speed climb is if you have significant range between you and the mustang, otherwise your just a slow climbing target who isn't going anywhere fast. If the games ballistics get fixed, this will be even more true. The Dora and the 51 are evenly matched overall, at least down low. Up high its a one sided affair- Pony wins.

 

 

... you nailed it Starky... I agree with everything but what do you mean by "If the games ballistics get fixed?" Are you talking about introduction of custom convergence or am i missing something?

[USARStarkey]

Thanks. I was referring to the 50cals and 20mm's being more powerful, hence taking less hits to kill. If this becomes more realistic is will go from difficult, to near impossible to climb from someone at slow speeds, as you wont be able to shrug off all the damage.

[dooom]

ah - gotcha... agreed.

 

That said - give me more powerful rounds and couple that with customizable convergence settings and we'll be hitting enemies with hammers.

[Solty]

It'll be great if someone can help Solty to solve his video recording issue. He has done a fantastic job recording replays and I always enjoyed his youtubes.

Thx man. That is flattering :)

 

So I was able to record this one fight. Which is actually my first ever encounter with a human flown Fw190D9.

${1}

(backup link, if something would be wrong:

)

I don't have much time to fly lately, but if I have something cooler, I will definitely post it.

 

Thx, to Blaze and SithSpawn for tips on replays. They work fine now.:v:

Edited August 25, 2014 by Solty