Plane Slower than Wingmen.

[sdannenberg3]

I am new to this game, so I may just be ignorant.. But I downloaded a user created mission for the P51-D from the DCS website. It is a 4v4 dogfight. I start off flying about as fast as my wingmen, but then instantly just lose speed and altitude. I have the throttle set to full. I have even tried putting my rpm to full and messed with mixture (I think).Then I realized, compared to most videos I see online, it seems like my plane flies slow all the time. And cues as to what it may be?

[Art-J]

AI pilots in DCS are perfect cyborgs with their engine management, which makes keeping up with them a bit difficult sometimes. Nevertheless, It would be much easier for us to give some advice If you could record and post a track over here, because your description is a bit too vague at the moment.

[fastfreddie]

Yeah don't get to discouraged and like Art J says they fly with perfect everything management. To be honest you should never probably be flying at full speed in formation to begin with because in coordinated turns the inner aircraft in the turn need to reduce speed and the outer planes need to increase speed to keep formation.

[sdannenberg3]

Yeah, I will post a video to show you what I mean. I also know you shouldnt be 100% throttle all the time, but then why can/do the bots on this mission? I was hoping or a little more plug and play fun haha. Im used to like il2. Which I know isnt near this as far as a sim, but its also not super arcady

[jib]

The AI use a completely different and much more simple flight model than player controlled aircraft (It keeps your computers CPU load down) it is inevitable that some differences are expected under some conditions.

[OutOnTheOP]

Also, it's worth noting that there are two major causes of speed loss in sustained, level high-speed flight:

 

1) sideslip. If the ball's not centered, the fuselage will slide through the air partially sideways, and generate a TON of drag

 

2) radiator doors open farther than needed. While a lot of players advocate manually opening them all the way in a dogfight (because it's usually a low-speed, high-engine-power-setting scenario), if you keep them fully opened all the time, they create a lot of drag. Also (not sure if this is modeled), if the radiator doors are open too far, the hot air exiting the radiator does not have sufficient pressure when it exits the radiator door to provide the "jet propulsion" effect that gives a small extra boost.

[Raven Morpheus]

EDIT - Just a thought but you say you have throttle set to full, but you instantly lose speed and altitude - are you setting your throttle before the mission starts? If so you may need to reset your throttle (just move it down then back up again to where you want it) once you have control of the plane. I've noticed with the UH-1H (the only module I fly regularly now in DCS) if I start a mission already airborne the collective isn't set to where I've got my X52 Pro throttle at, and obviously this causes me to start dropping out of the sky if I don't move my throttle to correct it!!

 

Or if there's an option for the P-51 (I know there is for the UH-1H) in the options menu check the option called something like "synchronise controls with HOTAS" and see if that works.

 

 

If that's not the case read on -

 

I used to have the issues keeping up with AI wingmen in IL2 1946, I would imagine DCS has the same things affecting your speed as IL2 1946 does.

 

I overcame the issue by learning to trim my plane for level flight and remove side slip by adding rudder trim or just using my pedals (as OutOnTheOp said you're "ball" should be centered) and now I generally end up having to circle around to lose speed as my AI wingmen can't keep up with me. And mostly when cruising now I fly just using trim inputs.

 

Aside from the aforementioned prop pitch is also a factor, or so I've read. Personally I've never understood prop pitch all that well, but in IL2 1946 I do kind of grasp the idea that you want a lower prop pitch when climbing/cruising, if only to avoid overheating the engine(s). The way I've read and understood the theory of prop pitch is that it's like changing gears in a car, 100% is pretty much 1st gear. As an example, again I know it's not DCS but IL2 1946, in the F4U Corsair your cruise RPM is supposed to be about 7600, you can manage this by reducing the prop pitch until your RPM drops. I generally fly the F4U in IL2 1946 at 60%-75% throttle with 90% prop pitch when cruising.

 

Try similar things in the Mustang in DCS, I'd bet you'll be flying quicker than the AI wingmen (unless they are actually programmed to be way faster than it's actually possible for anyone to fly!!).

Edited September 3, 2014 by Raven Morpheus

[Buzzles]

If you can post a track, we can see if you're doing anything wrong and help you :)

[sdannenberg3]

Yeah I am sorry guys, thank you SO much for all your help! I think you guys might be on to something with the "flying on the ball thing". I have not been ignoring your posts, But 2 days ago my computer stopped posting to BIOS so its been broken. Great timing with school and all. But I just got back from the store with a new motherboard. I am fixing it now and will get a track (thats just a video of the game mission, correct?) later tonight when i'm up and running!

 

Sorry, just didn't wanna bug you guys with constant life updates! haha

[Buzzles]

I am fixing it now and will get a track (thats just a video of the game mission, correct?) later tonight when i'm up and running!

 

Yeah, when you end a mission, there's button for save track :)

[sdannenberg3]

Ok I finally got a track! I know my flying is not the smoothest, was looking around. I have tried being smoother and still nothing. I just cant keep up! I've included the link to the mission if someone could maybe try it out and post a track of them succeeding to follow the wing men? Then kindly critique me and let me know why it's not working for me! :P

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/778955/

Wingmen Fly Faster.trk

[Art-J]

It is puzzling indeed. At first glance at Your replay, You seem to be doing everything right. Mixture is good, RPM and MAP is good for military power, ball is more or less good, yet they seem to be a bit faster indeed.

 

I downloaded the mission. For comparison, take look at a similar recording I made. Disregard my lack of spacial awareness and abysmally idiotic attempts to stay anywhere in formation, I'm still trying to learn how to fly with labels off and zoom set to my TrackIR z axis :D. Anyway, even with MAP at about 46-50", trims and ball all over the place, I still manage to fly near them or catch up easily. I suppose Your game is upgraded to the latest version? Probably is, otherwise I would not be able to play your track correctly. So AI behaviour should be same for both of us... unless mission maker set their skill to "random" and this causes differences in their performance? I didn't check this mission in the editor, but that might be some clue.

1.2.10 wingmen.trk

Edited September 6, 2014 by Art-J

[sdannenberg3]

Yeah, your airspeed is always higher than mine! I still don't get it. I am just going to reformat my computer and do a fresh install of everything...

[Rivvern]

Try and do a repair of the DCS install first. Search the start menu for DCS Repair.

[Wolf Rider]

use flaps ;)

[ShuRugal]

if the radiator doors are open too far, the hot air exiting the radiator does not have sufficient pressure when it exits the radiator door to provide the "jet propulsion" effect that gives a small extra boost.

 

"jet propulsion effect"? I assume you mean to suggest that the radiator will act as a ramjet? Cool air comes in the front, gets made hot by the radiator, and expands out the back?

 

I don't think it works that way. In the first place, the radiator is only going to heat the air to 100C, which is nowhere near enough to cause it to significantly expand. Further, there is no compression coming in to the radiator, the only place after the inlet which the airflow is restricted is at the exhaust of the radiator cavity, and for a jet engine to work, you have to compress the air before heating it, not after. And to cap it off, ramjets are nonfunctional below mach-1, because they rely on using inlet shock to aid in compression.

[Art-J]

"jet propulsion effect"? I assume you mean to suggest that the radiator will act as a ramjet? Cool air comes in the front, gets made hot by the radiator, and expands out the back?

 

I don't think it works that way. In the first place, the radiator is only going to heat the air to 100C, which is nowhere near enough to cause it to significantly expand. Further, there is no compression coming in to the radiator, the only place after the inlet which the airflow is restricted is at the exhaust of the radiator cavity, and for a jet engine to work, you have to compress the air before heating it, not after. And to cap it off, ramjets are nonfunctional below mach-1, because they rely on using inlet shock to aid in compression.

 

I assume he talks about Meredith effect, utilizing of which was substantial for increasing P-51's performance. It basically works as you described - "Cool air comes in the front, gets made hot by the radiator, and expands out the back". Obviously not as much as in ramjets - it can only reduce the radiator drag, but that's still better than nothing! On a sidenote, there indeed was "compression coming in to the radiator", done by a massive diffuser duct located between inlet and the radiator itself. I don't know if the effect is modelled in DCS though, never tested speeds with different radiator door settings.

 

Anyway, that's certainly not a cause of the problem OP has!

[too-cool]

I installed the mission that (Sdannenberg3) posted above but my gunsight reticule does not properly align in the gun-sight, its way to high and Trackir will not ajust it to a useable position. Any Ideas? TC

Edited September 9, 2014 by too-cool

[Art-J]

After reading another thread, I'd like to ask you, sdannenberg3, if you fly using "game flight mode" (your replay shows lots of "arcade" helping tools in the cockpit view, so I presume this might be the case). I read, that apparently, it causes drop in plane's performance. That might be the reason for your problem.

[ShuRugal]

I assume he talks about Meredith effect, utilizing of which was substantial for increasing P-51's performance. It basically works as you described - "Cool air comes in the front, gets made hot by the radiator, and expands out the back". Obviously not as much as in ramjets - it can only reduce the radiator drag, but that's still better than nothing! On a sidenote, there indeed was "compression coming in to the radiator", done by a massive diffuser duct located between inlet and the radiator itself. I don't know if the effect is modelled in DCS though, never tested speeds with different radiator door settings.

 

Anyway, that's certainly not a cause of the problem OP has!

 

 

Huh, never heard of Meredith effect before. Just did a bit of research and it's an interesting read. Would be interested to know if this effect is modeled (even if it's scripted based on speed, coolant temperature, and duct position) in DCS Mustang.