Any thoughts on this FM behaviour?

[JST]

You mean Ponies aren't supposed to absorb 20mm HE's in the tail?

[Whiplash]

Doing a barrel roll right after takeoff was one of Bob Hoovers signature moves. Given the number of aircraft he's flown I wouldn't be surprised if he's even done it in a HE 111.

 

 

Edit: I just realized he's not taking off in the first part of the video but I do know that was his trademark.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Whiplash

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^really love this vid!dont know how often i already watched it :) never gets boring.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Energy management is indeed what I do the most when flying IRL, from the moment I release the tow rope :-)

 

Gliders are indeed probably one of the most spectacular form of energy management in terms of fixed wing airplanes...

 

start at 0:30:

 

or here:

 

 

BTW: A glider ( even if just a demonstrator of DCS's capabilities to model different sorts of airplanes... ) would be great to have in DCS :-)

Many Military Air Academies have a glider fleet for basic pilot training, so, it wouldn't look bad at some of the airfields :-)

Edited October 28, 2014 by jcomm

[iFoxRomeo]

Doing a barrel roll right after takeoff was one of Bob Hoovers signature moves. Given the number of aircraft he's flown I wouldn't be surprised if he's even done it in a HE 111.

 

 

Edit: I just realized he's not taking off in the first part of the video but I do know that was his trademark.

 

Meh, Bob obviously uses a SFM for that video. Look how he fills a glas with icetea. Impossible. The Icetea´s reaction is way too simplified. And the graphics are meh too....:music_whistling:

 

 

Btt:

I don´t see anything problematic in the videos posted by the OP.

 

 

Fox

Edited October 28, 2014 by iFoxRomeo

[NineLine]

I am trying to stay chill... but all these "must" , 'too big" begin to be annoying... we use ACCURATE data for this drag - sometimes from WT tests, sometimes from indirect tests, like MP for the P-51 at full flaps and gear down configuration at certain sink rate or in level flight for the certain mass, etc.

 

And please, do not compare DCS to another sims as reference - if you drive me angry I will begin to show sooo great flaws in these models, though it is not very polite.

 

Dont make Yo-Yo angry... you wouldnt like him when he is angry ;)

 

[Yo-Yo]

Energy management is indeed what I do the most when flying IRL, from the moment I release the tow rope :-)

 

Gliders are indeed probably one of the most spectacular form of energy management in terms of fixed wing airplanes...

 

start at 0:30:

 

or here:

 

 

BTW: A glider ( even if just a demonstrator of DCS's capabilities to model different sorts of airplanes... ) would be great to have in DCS :-)

Many Military Air Academies have a glider fleet for basic pilot training, so, it wouldn't look bad at some of the airfields :-)

 

There is no problem to make the glider... :) but we will have to include thermics/clouds systems, ridge airflows, etc.

[JST]

Komet is a glider...

 

:music_whistling:

[Solty]

You mean Ponies aren't supposed to absorb 20mm HE's in the tail?

 

Ehm...

 

Still not funny-.-

:noexpression:

[JST]

Just a little.

[Charly_Owl]

Hello Yo-Yo! Please don't be angry, I have too much respect for you to intend to drive you into a huge muscular green man with elocution problems.

 

I did not mean to compare it with any sim other than "Real Life Combat Simulator ". These videos were not made by me, but when I found them I just blinked and scratched my head in incomprehension.

 

This thread is by NO MEANS meant to be provocative and to criticize your work (which I admire, and that's coming from a guy who actually had to create flight models in university... so I know how hard it is to get right). I was just wondering if these manoeuvers, even at very low fuel loads, were actually possible.

 

Instinctively, I'm not sure I'd say they are. But instincts can be wrong sometimes. Cold, hard numbers do not lie, but it isn't possible to model ALL aspects of a FM; they cannot be perfect and never will be. You can only approximate to the best of your knowledge or your resources by making assumptions. I was just wondering how these manoeuvers could be done at such low speeds and such low altitude. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how this is possible (I'm an engineer IRL, so I'm curious by nature about these kind of things).

Edited October 28, 2014 by Charly_Owl

[Kwiatek]

Doing a barrel roll right after takeoff was one of Bob Hoovers signature moves. Given the number of aircraft he's flown I wouldn't be surprised if he's even done it in a HE 111.

 

 

Edit: I just realized he's not taking off in the first part of the video but I do know that was his trademark.

 

If Bob Hoover made it in his plane it is not mean that he would be able to do in He111 right after take off.

 

He-111 has different size, weight and P/W ratio.

 

Cant imagine how such plane like He-111 could do near straight roll after take off or loop at such low speeds.

 

If you watch carefully Bob Hoover videos or other RL videos with more heavy machines doing loop or roll you will notice that for all these manouvers there is need required energy ( speed or alt)

 

Bob Hoover made in his ME plane roll after take off - but he made it smartly - after take off he gear up, increasing a speed in level flight then made high pitch barell roll. These is huge differences.

 

So dont belive that all what you see in simulators could be done similar way IRL. Not all from these things.

[Yo-Yo]

Hello Yo-Yo! Please don't be angry, I have too much respect for you to intend to drive you into a huge muscular green man with elocution problems.

 

I did not mean to compare it with any sim other than "Real Life Combat Simulator ". These videos were not made by me, but when I found them I just blinked and scratched my head in incomprehension.

 

This thread is by NO MEANS meant to be provocative and to criticize your work (which I admire, and that's coming from a guy who actually had to create flight models in university... so I know how hard it is to get right). I was just wondering if these manoeuvers, even at very low fuel loads, were actually possible.

 

Instinctively, I'm not sure I'd say they are. But instincts can be wrong sometimes. Cold, hard numbers do not lie, but it isn't possible to model ALL aspects of a FM; they cannot be perfect and never will be. You can only approximate to the best of your knowledge or your resources by making assumptions. I was just wondering how these manoeuvers could be done at such low speeds and such low altitude. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how this is possible (I'm an engineer IRL, so I'm curious by nature about these kind of things).

 

I have nothing against this video because I do not see something unrealistic in this video except the unbeliveable courage of the pilot... :) If somebody performs the tricks Bob Hoover performed in a simulator and shows the video to a man who never saw Bob Hoover's flight - I think, he will say that it's impossible. This is an inertia of a human perception and mind.

(By the way, as I saw Chinook in Duxford performing absolutely crazy pilotage for my mind I was shocked - its fat fuselage rejected even a thought about posibility of these maneouvers :) )

As far as I read on the forum the author of this video managed to fly a Mustang this way from the 4th attempt. I think that it's a good explanation why nobody (or very few) performs it in RL.

 

Ok, let's speak about these "rolls from start". It's a little trick to let the plane fly not straight directing its flightpath a little bit up. So, the plane now requires significantly less lift than for the level flight. If you fly parabola you need no lift at all.

 

THen you can roll taking not so much care about lift but never forget to help the plane flying - use rudder pedals and stick as usual for a slow roll. No magic. And no doubt in FM calculations - I know only one area it can not be 100% accurate. But it is very deep post-stall area we did not see in these videos.

 

Then I can see nothing that is against the laws of plane dynamics...

 

By the way - TF-51 at MIL or WEP having the mass 3300 kg is way energetically better than Yak-55 (15 m/s rate of climb) - what do you expect from it? :)

 

So, I can only present a gift for the author of the videos

 

 

And finally - nobody can fly straight in DCS with 45 degrees AoA... :)

Edited October 28, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[Charly_Owl]

Thank you for taking the time to explain, Yo-Yo. It's much appreciated.

 

What's written on the panel? My russian is not very good... :D

[NineLine]

New Life ;)

[OutOnTheOP]

You mean Ponies aren't supposed to absorb 20mm HE's in the tail?

 

and as a corollary: when the Ponies DO absorb a 20mm HE in the tail, the governor (in the nose) really shouldn't be the first thing to go out :music_whistling:

[Kwiatek]

I have nothing against this video because I do not see something unrealistic in this video except the unbeliveable courage of the pilot... :) If somebody performs the tricks Bob Hoover performed in a simulator and shows the video to a man who never saw Bob Hoover's flight - I think, he will say that it's impossible. This is an inertia of a human perception and mind.

(By the way, as I saw Chinook in Duxford performing absolutely crazy pilotage for my mind I was shocked - its fat fuselage rejected even a thought about posibility of these maneouvers :) )

As far as I read on the forum the author of this video managed to fly a Mustang this way from the 4th attempt. I think that it's a good explanation why nobody (or very few) performs it in RL.

 

Ok, let's speak about these "rolls from start". It's a little trick to let the plane fly not straight directing its flightpath a little bit up. So, the plane now requires significantly less lift than for the level flight. If you fly parabola you need no lift at all.

 

THen you can roll taking not so much care about lift but never forget to help the plane flying - use rudder pedals and stick as usual for a slow roll. No magic. And no doubt in FM calculations - I know only one area it can not be 100% accurate. But it is very deep post-stall area we did not see in these videos.

 

Then I can see nothing that is against the laws of plane dynamics...

 

By the way - TF-51 at MIL or WEP having the mass 3300 kg is way energetically better than Yak-55 (15 m/s rate of climb) - what do you expect from it? :)

 

So, I can only present a gift for the author of the videos

 

 

 

 

Exacly like you wrote there is need some tricks to do some manouvers - e.x barel roll not straight roll and have some energy at start.

 

So not every manouvers IRL could be possible like it is in some sims. Im sure e.x. He111 could not IRL make near straight roll after take off like it is possible in some game or make loops at so low speed.

 

 

 

 

And finally - nobody can fly straight in DCS with 45 degrees AoA...

 

 

You mean something like famous Su27 Cobra in WW2 prop planes ? :P

[Kurfürst]

If Bob Hoover made it in his plane it is not mean that he would be able to do in He111 right after take off.

 

He-111 has different size, weight and P/W ratio.

 

Cant imagine how such plane like He-111 could do near straight roll after take off or loop at such low speeds.

 

Ah, the He 111 issue. The roll may be off, but lacking data, I can't tell.

 

Size however nothing to do with it, except inertial moments and structural load limits. Apart from that, its all relative to the other numbers.

 

But aside from these, I think what many people miss in those hotly discusses BOS videos is how ridiculusly low the He 111 wing loading can get, especially with lighter load. Go check it out. One would need to crunch numbers, of course, but such low wingloading should assist looping ability. Its not all about power loading - yes, power loading can be used to overcome aerodynamic limits, and even a brick will fly with enough thrust. A low wing loading plane will however require less thrust to manouvre, including in loops, at lower speeds. If you can build up enough speed, I don't see problem. And by decreasing weight - this varies a lot more on a bomber than on a fighter - even thrust-to-weight ratio isn't all that poor either.

 

IRL use of course pointless to the extent of being dangerous, but theoretically, doing loops in a 111 does not seem to be impossible.

[otto]

^^:)

 

you forgot:

"the ballistics are ridiculous"

"in the other sim i can..."

"the damage model is off"

"we need higher octane"

...

 

You should see on another forum:

 

"I fly both sides but it's much easier to fly luftwaffe so i only fly BBC because it's so much easier to fly german planes" :megalol:

[Yo-Yo]

Ah, the He 111 issue. The roll may be off, but lacking data, I can't tell.

 

Size however nothing to do with it, except inertial moments and structural load limits. Apart from that, its all relative to the other numbers.

 

But aside from these, I think what many people miss in those hotly discusses BOS videos is how ridiculusly low the He 111 wing loading can get, especially with lighter load. Go check it out. One would need to crunch numbers, of course, but such low wingloading should assist looping ability. Its not all about power loading - yes, power loading can be used to overcome aerodynamic limits, and even a brick will fly with enough thrust. A low wing loading plane will however require less thrust to manouvre, including in loops, at lower speeds. If you can build up enough speed, I don't see problem. And by decreasing weight - this varies a lot more on a bomber than on a fighter - even thrust-to-weight ratio isn't all that poor either.

 

IRL use of course pointless to the extent of being dangerous, but theoretically, doing loops in a 111 does not seem to be impossible.

 

I have some additions: power-to-weight has not so much sense in looping because gliders have it = 0 and perform loops easily. THe main trap while looping is to avoid two limits - max speed and max g-load - completing a loop. If you pull regarding relatively low g-limit, the speed can overcome its limit.

 

And, by the way, MOI is not cryticl for the rolls except their initial and final parts. Three factors - low ailerons power, large wingspan and pronounced dihedral effect can lead the plane to reducing roll speed as its wings are near vertical attitude, for example, due to sideslip.

[Kurfürst]

Thanks YoYo!

 

Out of curiousity, what defines max roll rate? I understand what assists it, but what gives the limit, i.e. what stops the airplane from rolling even faster when it reaches to max rolling angular speed? Air resistance of wings themselves that is from the wings moving perpendicular to the rolling plane, or some lift equilibrium (since roll is from changed lift, negative and positive of the two wings from aileron displacement as I understan) I cannot seem to figure out...

[NineLine]

I have He111 data somewhere(I think), ED just needs to pull the trigger ;)

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I have He111 data somewhere(I think), ED just needs to pull the trigger ;)

 

Sounds VERY interesting !!!! :)

[Python]

There is no problem to make the glider... :) but we will have to include thermics/clouds systems, ridge airflows, etc.

 

Sounds like a plan. ;)

[BitMaster]

Thanks YoYo!

 

Out of curiousity, what defines max roll rate? ..... Air resistance of wings themselves that is from the wings moving perpendicular to the rolling plane...

 

The max roll rate is defined by the size,shape, hinge method and throw of your ailerons at a given speed with a certain mass at a certain air pressure in level flight. As you can see, change any one of these and the value will differ, more or less. Add a few under wing loads and it will not be same airplane :(

 

It is described in °/sec like 270°/sec roll rate @ 575km/h, 100m ASL , standard atmospheric conditions ( 20°C, 1024 mBar ).

 

 

The shorter the wing the better the roll rate, you can't actually compensate a large wingspan just by larger ailerons as again, some of the values are squared and any increase in length is exponential in terms of forces involved or needed. So with twice the wingspan you would need 4 x the aileron force to achieve the same, more or less, if my brain doesn't fool me.

 

Yo-Yo will shout at me if I am wrong with the squared values.

 

Bit