I don't understand the affect of altitude and target aspect on missile range

[Lascaille]

I bought FC3 this morning pretty much only so I had some platforms to engage helos and stuff on multiplayer missions that have annoying helos guarding airfields, I usually like to fly the KA50 and A10c.

 

The F15 should be able to engage targets out to about 30+ miles with the AIM120B and a bit further with the AIM120C - only in the sim the missile is displayed as having a range of about 10nm only.

 

For attacking patrolling aircraft that basically means you have to get into SAM range before you can fire. I did a bit of forum research and the posts going back for about a year all say the same thing - 'flight model' issues.

 

I don't mind genuine small production bugs, but a product with totally huge glitches that basically neuter the whole model (and apparently other missiles too) should not be on sale. This is a COMBAT flight simulator and the COMBAT elements (BVR and missile engagements being 90% of real-world A2A combat) are critical.

 

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/flaming_cliffs_3/

 

"New Key Features for the Flaming Cliffs Series - Improved flight dynamics for air-to-air missiles."

 

 

 

I want a refund.

[159th_Viper]

 

I want a refund.

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=124718

[Ultra]

only in the sim the missile is displayed as having a range of about 10nm only.

 

Where does it display that?

[Lascaille]

The range 'slider' on the right of the HUD. If you have both AIM7s and 120s loaded you can cycle through them and see the range limit bar moves very slightly when you cycle through them, whereas in reality it should nearly triple (or at the least double) for the 120. Also the 'shoot' verbal prompt and the range circle etc etc etc.

 

(In reply to Ultra's question)

Edited November 3, 2014 by Lascaille
add reply text

[Lascaille]

DCS:FC3 is not in beta. The word is not used anywhere on the product page or download page, and the version for sale is marked as "download version" as opposed to "download beta version".

 

Note this was originally in reply to a fairly helpful and well written that was just deleted.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Lascaille
Indicating that comment I replied to was deleted

[Beagle One]

The F-15C that comes with FC3 is indeed still labeled BETA.

 

On the topic. the maximum range of the misiles is stated as MAXIMUM range not the range under all circumstances...the 30nm/55km figure is for a large target the size of a bomber heading straight at you at 42.000 feet with you as the launchgn plattform doing mach 1.5 at 48.000 feet...not exactly that number, just to give you a picture of what to exspect.

 

Down low fired at a manouvering target the missile will not only miss a lot but simply loose all energy very fast due to high drag and high G manouvers.

 

While the missile behaviour is far from perfect in DCS, especially the strange and unefficient intercept patterns, the ranges in the conditions above seem to work right.

 

btw: It seems to me you don't understand the effect of altitude and target aspect on missile range.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Beagle One

[Ultra]

The point is in DCS you can kill things from further away than 10 nm with an AMRAAM :thumbup:

[Lascaille]

The F-15C that comes with FC3 is indeed still labeled BETA.

 

On the topic. the maximum range of the misiles is stated as MAXIMUM range not the range under all circumstances...the 30nm/55km figure is for a large target the size of a bomber heading straight at you at 42.000 feet with you as the launchgn plattform doing mach 1.5 at 48.000 feet...not exactly that number, just to give you a picture of what to exspect.

 

Down low fired at a manouvering target the missile will not only miss a lot but simply loose all energy very fast due to high drag and high G manouvers.

 

While the missile behaviour is far from perfect in DCS, especially the strange and unefficient intercept patterns, the ranges in the conditions above seem to work right.

 

btw: It seems to me you don't understand the effect of altitude and target aspect on missile range.

 

One of my experiments (before I started researching the issue) was on my mig21 test mission which has 4 Tupolev trijets coming head-on at 25kft. Anything further than about 14nm with the 120 is a miss.

[Shadow KT]

Dude, The missiles has a max range of 55km/30nm and it can do that. It is capable of doing it. But maybe you have to read before you speak. That max range is to a target which is coming your way and it is not manuevering.

 

And what do u mean you do not understand the effects of physics on the missiles. The missiles will have more speed/energy if you are flying faster as it will have a greater intial speed. The higher you are from your target the more energy will the missile have cuz gravity....duh. And c'mon why the aspect matters ? if you fire a missile 20 degrees off target you have to realize the energy that missiles needs to turn to its target while going full power. Try aiming the dot in the middle of the circle for highest chance of a hit. Flying generally higher will help you out (hits from 20 miles away are a a possibility).

 

Also helicopters are genarally harder to find/track/hit cuz of their smaller shape/size and heat signature if talking for IR.

 

Also that smaller range you are talking about (roughly around 10nm) is called A-pole, if I am correct, and when you pass dat mark (marked with a thiker line on your distance meter on the hud) that means that you are guaranteed a kill no matter what manuever does the enemy do. Of course releasing countermeasures could save him (slight chance) or hiding behind a physicall barrier (a mountain or a building, ect).

Edited November 3, 2014 by Shadow KT

[Shadow KT]

You can even see on this picture

 

 

I locked a target from 80 miles away and from what the hud indicates I would have had a LA at 40 miles and a A-pole shot from 20 miles which Is a bit too much which is why I posted the screenshot somewhere else first. So it is possible

[Buckeye]

I don't understand the affect of altitude and target aspect on missile range

 

Every rebuttal that people are posting in here is assuming that the missiles have proper kinematics and guidance in DCS, when in fact they do not. Against an AI target (i.e. The equivalent of a brain dead pilot who flies straight into the missile), yes the missile modeling is semi-okay. Against any mildly competent human pilot, there is no chance in hell a missile outside 10-12nm has a shot of splashing them. This is, of course, baring any extreme altitude or closure rate situations.

 

OP, check out IASGATG's missile mod. It makes the missiles much more true to their real life counterparts.

Edited November 4, 2014 by =Buckeye=

[karambiatos]

Every rebuttal that people are posting in here is assuming that the missiles have proper kinematics and guidance in DCS, when in fact they do not. Against an AI target (i.e. The equivalent of a brain dead pilot who flies straight into the missile), yes the missile modeling is semi-okay. Against any mildly competent human pilot, there is no chance in hell a missile outside 10-12nm has a shot of splashing them. This is, of course, baring any extreme altitude or closure rate situations.

 

OP, check out IASGATG's missile mod. It makes the missiles much more true to their real life counterparts.

this.

 

ER currently stands for extra rank

[Lascaille]

Thanks for the pointer, I saw the missile research paper yesterday and the mod late last night. I like the mod but if it's not working on MP servers what's the point?

 

I'm now very annoyed with the way this is being dealt with.

 

1. The headline of this thread was changed to make it appear that me (the paying customer, lol) has a personal problem - my original thread title referred to the missile AFM.

 

2. The software is NOT sold as 'beta' but in reality major elements are WIP. I know that the F15C single module is sold as 'beta' but FC3 is NOT sold as beta. That means I expect it to work in the same manner as the A10C and the KA50, which are the same price - i.e. properly. If the a120 doesn't fly like an a120, take it out until it does. It's not like this is a hard-to-find edge case - it took me about 4 hours of playing FC3 (I bought it YESTERDAY) to be trying to figure out 'where are the long range missiles on the F15'.

 

3. The FC3 website actually specifically advertises 'advanced AFM for missiles' while it's known very well here that missiles are a WIP.

 

I consider that this product is falsely advertised.

[kk0425]

Missiles are indeed a work in progress. I remember a while back dueling with a pilot in an F-15C, same as me, and we were both at sea level. Both of us would fire a missile at each other which was roughly 6 nmi of separation. I fired at him 4 separate times and would maneuver to avoid his missile which was shot at about the same time. All 4 times neither my missile or his hit either of us. We were both using AIM-120s. I can only hope the guy they have assigned to missiles has some free time in near future to work on the models some more. IASGATS missile performance mod is excellent. Guidance needs to be looked at too but since that is hard coded into the sim, only ED can improve that.

[TAW_Blaze]

Thanks for the pointer, I saw the missile research paper yesterday and the mod late last night. I like the mod but if it's not working on MP servers what's the point?

 

I'm now very annoyed with the way this is being dealt with.

 

1. The headline of this thread was changed to make it appear that me (the paying customer, lol) has a personal problem - my original thread title referred to the missile AFM.

 

2. The software is NOT sold as 'beta' but in reality major elements are WIP. I know that the F15C single module is sold as 'beta' but FC3 is NOT sold as beta. That means I expect it to work in the same manner as the A10C and the KA50, which are the same price - i.e. properly. If the a120 doesn't fly like an a120, take it out until it does. It's not like this is a hard-to-find edge case - it took me about 4 hours of playing FC3 (I bought it YESTERDAY) to be trying to figure out 'where are the long range missiles on the F15'.

 

3. The FC3 website actually specifically advertises 'advanced AFM for missiles' while it's known very well here that missiles are a WIP.

 

So basically delete the game because nothing works as you expect it. Delete the A-10C, delete the Mustang, delete the Huey, all that stuff because you can bet there are major behaviours that are unrealistic (yes, even in the Hog).

 

It took you a whole 4 hours to figure that all missile behaviour is wrong? I bow down before all of your expertise!

 

Then you quote some wikipedia missile range. You obviously have zero idea how any of this stuff work, none at all.

 

I consider that this product is falsely advertised.

 

I consider that you have stupid expectations that come straight from a made up basement of knowledge. Wait, what am I talking about, rather a complete lack of any relevant knowledge.

[Lascaille]

So basically delete the game because nothing works as you expect it. Delete the A-10C, delete the Mustang, delete the Huey, all that stuff because you can bet there are major behaviours that are unrealistic (yes, even in the Hog).

 

I have every single one of the DCS modules because I think the project as a whole is worth supporting. The models are in general excellent. If there are behaviours that are unrealistic in the A10C they do not impact significantly on the ability to fight and fly with the aircraft.

 

It took you a whole 4 hours to figure that all missile behaviour is wrong? I bow down before all of your expertise!

 

When I can hit a helo with a maverick at a greater range than I with an AIM120, there is something wrong.

 

I consider that you have stupid expectations that come straight from a made up basement of knowledge. Wait, what am I talking about, rather a complete lack of any relevant knowledge.

 

I originated this post before finding the paper on the missile behaviour, the missile mod and other posts. I've just found one that demonstrates that the KH25-ML is suffering from the same problem and has been since January:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1973789&postcount=2

 

I don't care if you choose to attack me. I do care that missiles are broken.

 

Seriously what point are you making? When the developers and internal testers have at various times made statements about missiles being WIP you are going to insist that I am wrong and that missiles in fact work perfectly?

[NineLine]

Individual aircraft are getting free updates, so yes, the F-15C within FC3 is still considered beta, and soon so will the Su-27 as it is getting a PFM and other goodies.

 

As for missiles, if you can give definitive proof of issues with missiles (ie its best to supply a track of your issues to confirm the problems you are seeing are an issue with the sim and not your knowledge of the systems in question) ED will be happy to look at all constructively submitted bug reports.

 

You have had FC3 for 24 hours? I think you need to understand that even the FC3 aircraft take some effort to master and fly proficiently. If you are willing, many people here will help you. That is not to say that there might be issues that still need work, but if you come out of the gates swinging, your are just not going to get anywhere.

 

Thanks for the pointer, I saw the missile research paper yesterday and the mod late last night. I like the mod but if it's not working on MP servers what's the point?

 

I'm now very annoyed with the way this is being dealt with.

 

1. The headline of this thread was changed to make it appear that me (the paying customer, lol) has a personal problem - my original thread title referred to the missile AFM.

 

2. The software is NOT sold as 'beta' but in reality major elements are WIP. I know that the F15C single module is sold as 'beta' but FC3 is NOT sold as beta. That means I expect it to work in the same manner as the A10C and the KA50, which are the same price - i.e. properly. If the a120 doesn't fly like an a120, take it out until it does. It's not like this is a hard-to-find edge case - it took me about 4 hours of playing FC3 (I bought it YESTERDAY) to be trying to figure out 'where are the long range missiles on the F15'.

 

3. The FC3 website actually specifically advertises 'advanced AFM for missiles' while it's known very well here that missiles are a WIP.

 

I consider that this product is falsely advertised.

[Lascaille]

Individual aircraft are getting free updates, so yes, the F-15C within FC3 is still considered beta, and soon so will the Su-27 as it is getting a PFM and other goodies.

 

The FC3 product is not advertised as beta. I bought the FC3 product. Do you see the problem? Hell I don't _really_ care about a refund, A10C to me is easily worth $100 (after all prepar3d is $200) I just want a finished (or at least known state) product.

 

As for missiles, if you can give definitive proof of issues with missiles

 

The 'issues with missiles' are extensively described by others (IASGATG et al) in a very very long thread on that subject. I have nothing to add apart from 'oh, I'm seeing that too.' Their paper is very comprehensive so the 'issues' are already raised - there just isn't really an answer being put forwards. I guess you saw the KH25-ML post linked above - so as per testers, at least that missile has an (AFM?) issue, so you can see why queries may be raised about others, especially if they seem to perform poorly. ED should respond:

 

1. Missiles are significantly off their real-life behaviour (reasons irrelevant) and are a WIP i.e. beta.

or

2. Missiles are simulated to an 'appropriate' degree of accuracy and are a released finished product.

 

If both 1 and 2 apply as different missiles are in different stages of development, knowing which missiles are in which state would be helpful.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Lascaille
I wanted to change something

[NineLine]

So if the issues are all described in that other thread, there is no need for this one. Closed.