DCS detecting all Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS switch commands!

[Archer7]

Currently DCS only does not detect about 16 Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS commands if you plug and play which makes it impossible to use the commands in any other aircraft than the A-10C!

 

While the commands work in the A-10C you will have to use some magic and work to make the commands operational in other aircraft which brings with it several quite unnecessary inconveniences.

 

Since the HOTAS is supposed to be plug and play and DCS has evolved quite a bit since it was originally made I believe it would be excellent if ED made an effort to bring its compatibility with DCS up to date.

 

Quite a lot of DCS players use the Warthog has I believe it would convenience everyone greatly and make extra software unnecessary if the game could be made to detect the commands!

 

The commands are:

Left Throttle Off

Right Throttle Off

Pinky Centre

Speed Brake Centre

Boat Centre

China Hat Centre

Left Engine Fuel Flow Override

Right Engine Fuel Flow Override

Left Engine Operate Normal

Right Engine Operate Normal

APU Off

Autopilot Selector Altitude/Heading

Radar Altimeter Disable

Enhanced Attitude Control Off

Flaps Manoeuvre

(Autopilot disengage)*

 

* Useless command.

 

I don’t believe anyone will disagree having DCS detect the commands without extra software would be very convenient so the only question is how hard it would be for ED to do.

In my experience control detection changes should be one of the easier things to do.

[ez]

The reason these switches aren't being detected is because these states are all 'off' states for the switches. This can be seen if you use the Windows game controllers control panel and double-click "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog" and look at the button states.

There are limits with the number of inputs per device allowed by DirectInput - I think it's 6 axes, 1 PoV hat, and 32 buttons - so to allow for more than 32 button inputs on the controller DCS have to let commands be mapped to the 'switched off' state of a button as well as the 'switched on' state.

 

Eg. the 3-way autopilot switch is actually two buttons: switch up = button 27 on; switch down = button 28 on; and switch centre = buttons 27 and 28 off. The flaps switch works the same way.

DCS's way of getting around this limitation of DirectX seems to be limited to A-10C only at the moment, but it's definitely something that they *could* implement for other aircraft. It's not likely that it's a priority though, because a lot of people will use TARGET to achieve what they want.

 

 

Sensible defaults should be provided for other planes. Whenever I want to fly I end up flying the A-10C every time because I still haven't gotten around to mapping the controls for my FC3 planes.

It would be good to have default mappings for the TM Warthog (and other popular sticks) for the other planes, and to have the functions mapped as closely as possible to the equivalent function in the A-10C.

Doesn't need to have every control on the HOTAS mapped, just the important things.

 

Or even a way to speed up the slow process of mapping commands: allow plane profiles to be copied.

Eg. I copy my A-10C profile to my Su-27 profile. Any shared commands (all control axes, brakes, NWS, etc) get copied over, leaving me to set up only those commands which are unique to the aircraft I'm configuring.

[BitMaster]

Just a question from an old Thrustmaster Hotas owner.

 

I had 2 Hotas in the 90`s made by TM, one was a smaller one with less buttons and I can't recall it's name nor how it got programmed back in DOS days.

 

The 2nd one I had was F22 Stick with F-16 TQS Throttle and RCS Rudders.

To be honest, it was a love & hate thing all those years until sometime around the year 2000 the board in the F22 failed and it was based on GamingPort so I decided to let things go and focus on R/C for almost a decade, leaving Flightsims alone.

 

I followed Flanker over the years and things went north instead of south and last year I decided to hop back on the train with DCS World and give FlightSims another chance, knowing that I would have to invest in a Hotas sooner or later, since I know what I am missing and that some things can't be achieved without controls at hand. Right now I fly with a Logitech Freedom 2.4 Cordless TwistStick and I have to say, I can fly all planes and Helicopters pretty well with it but the A-10C.

I gave up on it cause it is a pain to control this plane with keyboard, mouse and a lesser stick.

 

My question is, can you still program that Hotas in direct RAW code, which I was pretty good at.

Back then the community had a special Software that was designed for the aftermarket Eprom you could add in which I did to overcome some limitations, but I never went away from directly telling the system to do when I press a button, hold a button, release a button or any other combo of buttons, held dressed or released in sequences that I am not reading somewhere here that this can be done still today ?

 

I am no fan of ready made Lego programming cause it causes huge codes and less effective, harder to troubleshoot and not down to the core, leaving all graphics and Clicki-Colourfulls away.

 

All you need than is a simple text editor like Notepad++....and some time.

 

 

As I am putting a new system together I am also looking at the Warthog combo though I really really hate the idea of using rudders again. Realism yes or no, I hate to have my legs in a forced position for extended periods of time.It#s a personal medical thing but I guess I will have to get rudders as well, I just haven't found ANY with hall sensors yet, and I am not buying anything with standard pots or a system I can mod to hall sensors. A spiking rudder is not what I need :)

 

What measures to you have at hand to program the Hotas ?

 

 

Bit

[snuffles]

nice idea, but don't forget that there's a certain level of assumed knowledge required for a study-sim like DCS. Besides, having to bind these buttons to actions manually is actually quite good - customised and even much more efficient layouts are quite common

[Archer7]

The reason these switches aren't being detected is because these states are all 'off' states for the switches. This can be seen if you use the Windows game controllers control panel and double-click "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog" and look at the button states.

There are limits with the number of inputs per device allowed by DirectInput - I think it's 6 axes, 1 PoV hat, and 32 buttons - so to allow for more than 32 button inputs on the controller DCS have to let commands be mapped to the 'switched off' state of a button as well as the 'switched on' state.

 

Eg. the 3-way autopilot switch is actually two buttons: switch up = button 27 on; switch down = button 28 on; and switch centre = buttons 27 and 28 off. The flaps switch works the same way.

DCS's way of getting around this limitation of DirectX seems to be limited to A-10C only at the moment, but it's definitely something that they *could* implement for other aircraft. It's not likely that it's a priority though, because a lot of people will use TARGET to achieve what they want.

 

 

Sensible defaults should be provided for other planes. Whenever I want to fly I end up flying the A-10C every time because I still haven't gotten around to mapping the controls for my FC3 planes.

It would be good to have default mappings for the TM Warthog (and other popular sticks) for the other planes, and to have the functions mapped as closely as possible to the equivalent function in the A-10C.

Doesn't need to have every control on the HOTAS mapped, just the important things.

 

Or even a way to speed up the slow process of mapping commands: allow plane profiles to be copied.

Eg. I copy my A-10C profile to my Su-27 profile. Any shared commands (all control axes, brakes, NWS, etc) get copied over, leaving me to set up only those commands which are unique to the aircraft I'm configuring.

 

So circumvent DirectInput... or alternatively split up the controllers into the joystick, grip and quadrant since neither have <32 commands!

 

Using TARGET is a pain in my butt since you can't have it start with Windows and minimize it among other such usability issues.

I'm also avoiding the Cliffs aircraft because I haven't managed to set them up in an especially satisfactory way yet.

[cichlidfan]

So circumvent DirectInput... or alternatively split up the controllers into the joystick, grip and quadrant since neither have <32 commands!

 

Nothing will change the fact that the switches do not send a signal when in the off position. ED can't change the way the Warthog is constructed.

[Archer7]

What measures to you have at hand to program the Hotas ?

 

I believe you can map the Warthog HOTAS to do whatever you want using conventional third-party applications for mapping controllers.

So if ED say it's impossible to improve the Warthog HOTAS support in DCS that's where I'll be turning to.

 

nice idea, but don't forget that there's a certain level of assumed knowledge required for a study-sim like DCS. Besides, having to bind these buttons to actions manually is actually quite good - customised and even much more efficient layouts are quite common

 

What does certain level of knowledge have to do with it? What does binding manually have to do with it? I'm asking what's currently impossible unless you use extra software which is inconvenient.

 

Nothing will change the fact that the switches do not send a signal when in the off position. ED can't change the way the Warthog is constructed.

 

So what? The HOTAS works in the A-10C doesn’t it? All I’m asking is that they extend the same functionality to all other aircraft either by doing the same thing they did in the A-10C with the special control settings, or do what I described above to make the HOTAS universally compatible with any application which is really more of a TM thing to do but they’re not going to.

[cichlidfan]

The HOTAS works in the A-10C doesn’t it?

 

It works with the A-10C only for the specific functions mapped to specific switches. It is not setup so that you can assign anything in the cockpit to those switches and have it work the way you think it should.

[Archer7]

It works with the A-10C only for the specific functions mapped to specific switches. It is not setup so that you can assign anything in the cockpit to those switches and have it work the way you think it should.

 

Yeah and there's nothing much stopping us from changing that.

[QuiGon]

I also hope ED can do something about that. It works for me for the time beeing since the A-10C is the only AC which really needs all those buttons mapped for now (I'm only flying DCS-level AC, so I don't know about FC3 AC). But I'm concerned about the upcoming F/A-18. I hope they will provide a plug-and-play solution for that AC like they did for the A-10C with the TM Warthog.

[Sierra99]

The runners are nice for taxing and if you lose an engine or the like inflight...but they are not necessary if you can live with keyboard commands for nosewheel on the ground and during the first part of takeoff.

[kk0425]

Guys, just take a look at the input.lua and you should understand why it works for A-10C and not other modules. It's trivial to apply the same concepts to any other aircraft. I'm able to start and stop the F-15's engines with my Warthog and other functions.

 

And please don't say that ED should be responsible. The only reason the A-10C works is because ED was kind enough to include a custom .lua for it since the TM warthog was made specifically for DCS: A-10C. It's not up to ED to bind every button and axis for you for aircraft that don't have that same HOTAS because it's just not practical. It's up to the end user to choose what works best for them.

 

Edit for clarification.

[T_A]

Technically its not ED`s fault its like this, it is a design decision by Thrustmasters (or even a DX limitation perhaps) .

But - I think it would be in ED`s interest to make specific adjustment for the Warthog seeing as its such a common stick for this Sim , and on the higher end of the spectrum.

[ez]

So circumvent DirectInput... or alternatively split up the controllers into the joystick, grip and quadrant since neither have <32 commands!

 

Using TARGET is a pain in my butt since you can't have it start with Windows and minimize it among other such usability issues.

I'm also avoiding the Cliffs aircraft because I haven't managed to set them up in an especially satisfactory way yet.

 

i think that circumventing directinput would mean needing to effectively rewrite directinput, which is probably highly impractical.

 

you can tell TARGET to start with windows - create a shortcut to targetgui.exe and modify its properties. change the 'run' dropdown to 'minimized' and append the follow parameter to the 'target' textbox: -r path/to/profile

 

you can also call targetgui.exe with the -help switch to see other available commandline parameters.

[okpai]

I agree whole heartedly with the first poster. From a user perspective it is (saying it politely) annoying to must program the HOTAS Warthog for other planes then the A10. It is already hard enough to learn to fly a plane. Don't make me think! (I am learning to fly a plane!)

 

On a sideline what I also do not get: why people - who are customers - are defending the producers of the planes for their shoddy work! It is beyond me...??

[Archer7]

Guys, just take a look at the input.lua and you should understand why it works for A-10C and not other modules. It's trivial to apply the same concepts to any other aircraft. I'm able to start and stop the F-15's engines with my Warthog and other functions.

 

And please don't say that ED should be responsible. The only reason the A-10C works is because ED was kind enough to include a custom .lua for it since the TM warthog was made specifically for DCS: A-10C. It's not up to ED to bind every button and axis for you for aircraft that don't have that same HOTAS because it's just not practical. It's up to the end user to choose what works best for them.

 

Edit for clarification.

 

Sure, it's because ED are "kind enough" that DCS exists at all but at some point they have to be able to take criticism too.

 

i think that circumventing directinput would mean needing to effectively rewrite directinput, which is probably highly impractical.

 

you can tell TARGET to start with windows - create a shortcut to targetgui.exe and modify its properties. change the 'run' dropdown to 'minimized' and append the follow parameter to the 'target' textbox: -r path/to/profile

 

you can also call targetgui.exe with the -help switch to see other available commandline parameters.

 

 

If I could start TARGET with a profile to tray with Windows that would be excellent.

However I would still have the issue that I would have to bind several dozens of commands to keyboard keys meaning I can’t use the keys for anything else or to keyboard commands involving modifier keys meaning the DCS control settings fields won’t detect the commands so I would have to write down how each switch is bound making changing controls a lot of work and in both cases you are unable to use more than one keyboard-bound switch simultaneously.

All of this can be made to work seamlessly in-game but setting it up is hell and changing settings is so much work too…

Edited November 19, 2014 by Archer7

[cichlidfan]

When you buy an add on aircraft for FSX or P3d, do they come with a custom mapping for your joystick?

 

How many different controllers should ED provide custom configs for? I am sure the X-52 folks would like one as well, and there are probably more of them.

[Archer7]

When you buy an add on aircraft for FSX or P3d, do they come with a custom mapping for your joystick?

 

How many different controllers should ED provide custom configs for? I am sure the X-52 folks would like one as well, and there are probably more of them.

 

What I'm asking is that ED should make it so DCS detects all commands available on the popular Warthog HOTAS.

I'm not aware of any other HOTAS that needs >40 DX commands but if there are then I would say it is definitely in ED’s best interest to support them as well.

I'm sure ED would agree. After all they did work with TM to make the Warthog HOTAS compatible with the A-10C. Since then DCS has exploded with modules and now it's time to add general compatibility for the fans' sake.

 

Why not? Why can't ED do anything for their fans, you think?

 

On a sideline what I also do not get: why people - who are customers - are defending the producers of the planes for their shoddy work! It is beyond me...??

 

I suspect it may be a Russian thing... I doubt they have consumer rights over there.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Archer7

[redterror]

I had similar questions to the OP, framed differently, and got some helpful tips here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=134026

 

I agree it would be nice to have more of this out of the box, so one could use the excellent keybinding GUI to do all this instead of having to open up the hood for what would seem to be a common and recommended config.

[kk0425]

I've made this argument a dozen times already. The only reason it works like it does for the A-10C is due to the fact that the TM HOTAS is identical to the one we have in the sim. You cannot realistically expect ED to make custom controller confirm for each and every plane with dissimilar HOTAS configurations. There is nothing to criticize because even if ED did decide to add a configuration then we would have complaining about why they didn't map it the way THEY wanted. I cannot expect everyone to like the way my Warthog is configured for the F-15 or MiG-21 and I wouldn't expect ED to make a profile for them either that I or many other customers would like.

 

And I'm tired of trying to have rational discussions with irrational people so here is my final statement on this topic. Quit being lazy and figure it out for your damn self. If you can't be assed to map commands for a dissimilar system then I believe your playing the wrong game.

[ez]

I've made this argument a dozen times already. The only reason it works like it does for the A-10C is due to the fact that the TM HOTAS is identical to the one we have in the sim. You cannot realistically expect ED to make custom controller confirm for each and every plane with dissimilar HOTAS configurations. There is nothing to criticize because even if ED did decide to add a configuration then we would have complaining about why they didn't map it the way THEY wanted. I cannot expect everyone to like the way my Warthog is configured for the F-15 or MiG-21 and I wouldn't expect ED to make a profile for them either that I or many other customers would like.

 

And I'm tired of trying to have rational discussions with irrational people so here is my final statement on this topic. Quit being lazy and figure it out for your damn self. If you can't be assed to map commands for a dissimilar system then I believe your playing the wrong game.

 

personally i would like some sensible defaults, because mapping the x/y axes of my warthog throttle to the same axes as the stick is not a sensible default. no mapping at all would be better.

still, i realise that ED's time would be better spent working on the game features, and this is something that could be easily provided by the community.

i've googled for and found input lua scripts which other users have been kind enough to share, and they've been a great help to me, but these files are scattered across different sites and not immediately obvious for a person new to DCS.

 

i'm not sure what the best solution is, but it seems to me that this is something where DCS players can help each other out.

for instance, i'm sure that many of us would like to use your personal TM Warthog configuration for their FC3 planes, i know i would :-) at the very least to kickstart my own configuration efforts.

i've been playing for years, but am not active in any online community (apart from refreshing the DCS World forums every day hoping to see the release of EDGE!) so i don't know, but does a DCS wiki exist? a wiki would be a great place for people to share information like this that might take a newbie several hours of trawling the forums to find out...

[Archer7]

I've made this argument a dozen times already. The only reason it works like it does for the A-10C is due to the fact that the TM HOTAS is identical to the one we have in the sim. You cannot realistically expect ED to make custom controller confirm for each and every plane with dissimilar HOTAS configurations. There is nothing to criticize because even if ED did decide to add a configuration then we would have complaining about why they didn't map it the way THEY wanted. I cannot expect everyone to like the way my Warthog is configured for the F-15 or MiG-21 and I wouldn't expect ED to make a profile for them either that I or many other customers would like.

 

And I'm tired of trying to have rational discussions with irrational people so here is my final statement on this topic. Quit being lazy and figure it out for your damn self. If you can't be assed to map commands for a dissimilar system then I believe your playing the wrong game.

 

You clearly don't understand what I mean anyways.

I'm not saying ED should make custom controller configs for every plane or that each button one the HOTAS should automatically work with every aircraft so the APU switch works with the APU in every aircraft and so on: not at all!

What I'm saying is that DCS should detect all switch positions so when I enter the controls configuration for the UH-1H I should be able to bind both the APU up position and down position to execute some command in the aircraft.

I'm not saying it should start the APU in the Huey automatically if the Huey even has an APU switch as such.

 

Besides your argument is the sort that only could have come out a donkey's ass because how much time would it take for ED to change the default controls configuration so the APU switch flips the APU switch in every aircraft that has one? Minutes... get the gist?

You also seem to be of the **** everything-opinion that ED shouldn't do anything for their fans... I'll have to know TARGET actually does contain ****ing default bindings for the F-15 and Ka-50 already (made by ED-TM cooperation).

Edited November 20, 2014 by Archer7

[ApoNOOB]

If nobody is going to argue this, I am.

ED& 3rd party devs should provide control profiles for the TM Hotas Warthog in all their released modules. I refuse to believe that ED would be unable to provide what a modder is: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=130459 I am sure in the A10C .lua the switches are made the same way. Why not make a bunch of two & three-way switches and put them into the controls?

 

This should not be modders work, this should be included in the sim. Target sucks. You can't switch between airplanes while ingame. No go! :)

 

edit: Might even give it a new control column "2 & 3 way switches" :)

Edited November 20, 2014 by ApoNOOB

[kk0425]

You clearly don't understand what I mean anyways.

I'm not saying ED should make custom controller configs for every plane or that each button one the HOTAS should automatically work with every aircraft so the APU switch works with the APU in every aircraft and so on: not at all!

What I'm saying is that DCS should detect all switch positions so when I enter the controls configuration for the UH-1H I should be able to bind both the APU up position and down position to execute some command in the aircraft.

I'm not saying it should start the APU in the Huey automatically if the Huey even has an APU switch as such.

 

Besides your argument is the sort that only could have come out a donkey's ass because how much time would it take for ED to change the default controls configuration so the APU switch flips the APU switch in every aircraft that has one? Minutes... get the gist?

You also seem to be of the **** everything-opinion that ED shouldn't do anything for their fans... I'll have to know TARGET actually does contain ****ing default bindings for the F-15 and Ka-50 already (made by ED-TM cooperation).

And you missed the point of the first post I made in this thread. The functionality is already there. You can do everything with lua.

[tintifaxl]

I too would like to be able to assign the off position of the switches in the gui. There should be no need to learn lua scripting for the basic task of assigning commands to your controllers.

 

Not restricted to the Warthog of course. There are other devices out there that have toggle switches, that are not sending a dx command in the off position.