MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[Bidartarra]

So that's it! Killed my first enemy fighter!

Shot down a Su-27 on the 104th!

[coldViPer]

And another night time kill with an R-60M... I use the radar a lot more in this one though

 

I do enjoy flying at night, so cool.

 

Nice! Btw your sig says you have Oculus rift, do you use this or trackIr?

 

So that's it! Killed my first enemy fighter!

Shot down a Su-27 on the 104th!

 

Not bad SU-27! My first kill was A-10, was hard enough with R-60 :D

[Bidartarra]

 

Not bad SU-27! My first kill was A-10, was hard enough with R-60 :D

 

Thanks!!

Haha it took me 2 R60 to down an A10, the thing wont go down :D

[Hadwell]

Nice! Btw your sig says you have Oculus rift, do you use this or trackIr?...

 

I use trackIR... the oculus rift is far too low of a resolution, and as a head tracker, it's not nearly as easy... with trackir, it's a tilt of my head to look behind me... with the oculus rift i have to look behind me to look behind me... it's more natural with the rift, but much easier on the neck and back with trackir...

 

anyway, kinda off topic... PM me if you want to know more about that...

 

Good job on your first fighter kill Bidartarra.

[Bidartarra]

So I treated myself and bought a Trackir, changes the experience a lot, really like it, makes it sooooo much easier to spot other aircrafts.

No kill recently, but got a friend into buying the mig and 2 more are waiting for a sale to do so lol

[Bidartarra]

Killing a F15:

 

[coldViPer]

Killing a F15:

 

 

Nice one :thumbup:

[Bidartarra]

Thanks!

 

Damaged that F15, I should have shot 2 R3Rs lol

 

[kmstewart64]

Nice kill Bidartarra!

 

MORG

[coldViPer]

Thanks!

 

Damaged that F15, I should have shot 2 R3Rs

 

 

Well I shot two R3Rs but both missed! I was chasing one F-15 high but suddenly another F-15 pop up. Not so succesful story and made few mistakes (got killed :D) but learned a lot.

 

Bp0KNoBm7tM

[Hadwell]

Here's a couple R-13M1 F-15 kills...

 

[zaelu]

From the other day on 104th... managed to down my "nemesis" from few nights before... lol.

 

6liQRY8sUaI

 

I had a friend in the back with a Su27 that was supossed to be my AWACS but when the engagement begun he yelled like a little girl "I was locked! He fired!" and he broke away :D . However the stratagem has some chances to work :devil:

Edited May 24, 2015 by zaelu

[Dahlbeck]

Noob-(ish) question: what replay/ACMI software is that from?

[NeF]

Tacview ;} http://tacview.strasoftware.com/

[IASGATG]

*Mutters something about the R-3R*

[zaelu]

*Mutters something about the R-3R*

 

it looked to me also a bit strange that launch... however I had 16-17 seconds lock on target and still locked when it was hit already. But the second missile...

 

Here is the video (escuse the romanian chatter) at 10:06 is the launch and at 10:23 the lock is lost but you can see the target smoke a bit before)

 

[GGTharos]

His point is that this missile should have never hit:

 

The R-3R is a very old missile and not effective against a beam-aspect target.

It, and missiles of that era (like the AIM-9B it was based on) were not able to pull a lot of g at all, and so could not keep up well or at all with a beaming target.

Likewise, radar and heat seekers of that era would not even pretend to work near the ground or in any sort of look-down condition. You could shoot them, but they would flat out not track at all. Same thing if chaff is deployed. These missiles should go for chaff like a zombie goes for brains.

Technically your radar should not be able to track anything in a look-down condition either. I recall that this had been implemented originally with ground clutter etc, but it is no longer there. I wonder why it was removed, so maybe I am thinking of the wrong radar version ... but probably not :)

 

What you have in-game right now is basically like a short-ranged AIM-7M, not an R-3R. It destroys the entire difference between a modern and old aircraft.

 

it looked to me also a bit strange that launch... however I had 16-17 seconds lock on target and still locked when it was hit already. But the second missile...

[Bidartarra]

The difference is still here IMHO, mig 21 are relatively easy preys when up against the 15/27/29.

We really have to go the extra mile just to be in a shooting position.

Might not be true to the figure, but it's still a game.

[Frostie]

His point is that this missile should have never hit:

 

The R-3R is a very old missile and not effective against a beam-aspect target.

It, and missiles of that era (like the AIM-9B it was based on) were not able to pull a lot of g at all, and so could not keep up well or at all with a beaming target.

Likewise, radar and heat seekers of that era would not even pretend to work near the ground or in any sort of look-down condition. You could shoot them, but they would flat out not track at all. Same thing if chaff is deployed. These missiles should go for chaff like a zombie goes for brains.

Technically your radar should not be able to track anything in a look-down condition either. I recall that this had been implemented originally with ground clutter etc, but it is no longer there. I wonder why it was removed, so maybe I am thinking of the wrong radar version ... but probably not :)

 

What you have in-game right now is basically like a short-ranged AIM-7M, not an R-3R. It destroys the entire difference between a modern and old aircraft.

Effectiveness is not clear in that situation, the target was already off nose so giving the missile lead before adjustment for the maneuver which would require less G, the missile was already tracking, the chaff and beam was delayed rather than preemptive, at >2km how effective would chaff be to a tracking missile, the preemptive effect was shown by the second R-3R which immediately lost track thanks to the cloud of chaff and beam maneuver.

 

To say the missile launched here should not track at all is being presumptuous on a very grey area.

Yes, R-3Rs in game do track successfully and one might argue better than R-27s but this could also be interpreted as a poor representation of an R-27 rather than an overmodeled R-3.

[GGTharos]

I think you just do not realize just how bad these things were at turning :)

 

Their control mechanisms were very weak, seeker settling very long. If a target pulls g they miss, it is literally that simple - and this is before even getting down the sensor business.

 

Put it another way for you Frostie ... your R-27s are only terribly under-modeled in look-down. By comparison, you should be able to stick an R3R on your lift vector and you would not even need countermeasures. Just beam and pull and it misses, period, end of story. Do that with an R-27 and you ought to be sweating bullets.

So yeah, R-3Rs are ridiculously over-modeled, period. You are flat out dreaming if you really believe the stuff you posted here. These missiles should be compared to an AIM-7E at best from a sensor perspective (and an AIM-9B from maneuvering perspective), and no one should be wanting to use them in the current environment - but rather only in a proper era appropriate scenario.

 

And FYI I would be all over an AIM-7E showing good track in a look-down scenario, too.

 

Effectiveness is not clear in that situation, the target was already off nose so giving the missile lead before adjustment for the maneuver which would require less G, the missile was already tracking, the chaff and beam was delayed rather than preemptive, at >2km how effective would chaff be to a tracking missile, the preemptive effect was shown by the second R-3R which immediately lost track thanks to the cloud of chaff and beam maneuver.

 

To say the missile launched here should not track at all is being presumptuous on a very grey area.

Yes, R-3Rs in game do track successfully and one might argue better than R-27s but this could also be interpreted as a poor representation of an R-27 rather than an overmodeled R-3.

Edited May 27, 2015 by GGTharos

[Frostie]

I think you just do not realize just how bad these things were at turning :)

 

Yes my love of LN MiG-21 is probably forcing me to be too kind. ;)

[Hadwell]

uhh yeah the R-3R is the same missile as the R-3S, only difference is the tracker head, and it can hit head on from like... 12-14km, and no it doesn't turn that great and can miss, though it's pretty hard to miss from the short range it has from behind, if you launch it while in a 6 G turn while the enemy is pulling an 8g turn it will miss, if the enemy pulls even half the amount of gs it takes to dodge an aim-7 from a head-on shot it will miss... . it's still more comparable to an aim-9...

 

the reason people get kills with the R-3R most of the time is because the enemy can't tell if it's been launched, since the missile itself doesn't emit anything to let the enemy know its flying... so the enemy doesn't try to dodge it... or the mig-21 doesn't have that long of a radar range, so doesn't lock onto the enemy till right before he launches...

 

but... the R3R is the easiest missile to use for the mig-21, and that's really the reason i don't use it much...

Edited May 27, 2015 by Hadwell

[zaelu]

What load out do you use on 104th Hadwell?

[Hadwell]

What load out do you use on 104th Hadwell?

 

I use all the missile types, but my favorite missile is the R-13M1, it's the best IR missile the mig-21 can use, though the R-60M is better in every other way but range...

 

from worst to best missile:

 

r55, rs2us, r60, r3s, r13, r3r

 

the r55 has a longer range than the r-60m, less than the r3s, but it sucks at turning, the rs2us is the r55 just uses radar to track instead of ir...

 

though its debatable weather the r3r is better than the r13

 

the r13 is an upgraded r3s, it turns better and tracks better, and the r3r is exactly an r3s, it just radar to track instead of ir...

 

the R60M turns the best of all the missiles, and it has a wide seeker angle, but its range is short, usually i fire it at 4km or less, though i have hit at 6km with them...

 

it may sound like I'm just explaining what missile is what, but I really do use them all...

Edited May 28, 2015 by Hadwell

[Sleksa]

but... the R3R is the easiest missile to use for the mig-21, and that's really the reason i don't use it much...

 

For me it's been the complete opposite. I've had cases where I'm right behind a target, lock onto him in the ECM filter mode and fire, only to watch the missiles go left when the target goes right.

 

The range isn't anything spectacular either, the initial burst of speed is okay to roughly 5 km, but after that the missile pretty much hits a stone wall and drops from mach 3-4 to mach 0.5 in a span of few seconds, whereas many other missiles kinda float forward with a slow 'n steady decrease of speed.