MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[Nerdwing]

Seeker and fuse sensitivity aside, couldnt the R3R and GAR have aspects changed just by changing text files? Would be interesting to see a modder with the competence model the archaic missiles with their proper kinematic properties at least :P

[IASGATG]

This is a very simple analogy. The MiG-21 is the kid running in the special Olympics who occasionally, on a good day, beats Usain Bolt at the 100m. Some people are saying that perhaps the race was rigged. Sure the kid should feel good about himself, but in the broader context, not really.

[tsb47]

This is a very simple analogy. The MiG-21 is the kid running in the special Olympics who occasionally, on a good day, beats Usain Bolt at the 100m. Some people are saying that perhaps the race was rigged. Sure the kid should feel good about himself, but in the broader context, not really.

 

Isn't it more like former Olympians racing current ones?

[IASGATG]

Isn't it more like former Olympians racing current ones?

 

If that former Olympian was 95 and has a zimmer-frame.

[Hadwell]

Oh cmon can't we get past this... Let's discuss how things are in-game rather than fighting on the forums about how things aren't

[HellToupee]

Just people trying to come up with excuses after mig-21 heroes bruised their ego.

[Frostie]

If a Mig-21 shoots down my Flanker I'll eat my parachute.:P

[EngineerFalcon]

Ah, no. GGTharos did say the Mig-21 was OP:

OP: Over Powered. That would imply it has an unfair advantage on most DCS aircraft. GGTharos simply said it was more powerful in the sim than in real life.

 

GGTharos proves this correct:

 

Once again : People in this thread have said the FC3 planes were "the most powerful platforms in the sim". GGTharos simply said they actually weren't as powerful as they are in real life.

 

I don't recall anyone claiming the R3R was properly modelled. I think we said using the Mig-21 to kill F-15s etc was hard. Perhaps check the thread before commanding people to 'just do some research'?

 

Excuse me, but someone did say the R3R was modeled correctly. In fact, it was you :

Then it got hi-jacked, perhaps by someone who got shot down by a Mig-21bis, saying the Mig-21Bis was OP (lol!) because one of its weapons did not, in that person's opinion, correctly model the flaws that person considered it should.

You are saying GGTharos is wrong to say the R3R is improperly modeled, thus you are saying it is properly modeled.

 

 

EDIT: My original comment about the Spad was tongue in cheek, obviously. But if you don't want to take it in that vein, then you can eat sonic death rays from the nuclear powered vulcan cannon strapped to my DCS X-Wing (which is the next plane to be announced by Leatherneck BTW).

Excuse me ? Do you genuinely think I hadn't understood the sarcasm in your first post ?

 

 

This is a very simple analogy. The MiG-21 is the kid running in the special Olympics who occasionally, on a good day, beats Usain Bolt at the 100m. Some people are saying that perhaps the race was rigged. Sure the kid should feel good about himself, but in the broader context, not really.

This is pretty much it.

By the way, since we're talking about the R3R, do you think there's enough data available to fix its FM, like you did for the AIM-9M, AIM-120C and AIM-7M/F ?

Edited March 12, 2015 by EngineerFalcon

[GGTharos]

We did that exercise a few days ago actually.

 

The performance characteristics of all those missiles are well enough documented to do so.

[tsb47]

I love a good internet argument!

 

OP: Over Powered. That would imply it has an unfair advantage on most DCS aircraft. GGTharos simply said it was more powerful in the sim than in real life.

I don't have my Oxford Dictionary of Gaming Slang on me. But surely OP can mean both? Let's move this point to the semantics thread.

 

Once again : People in this thread have said the FC3 planes were "the most powerful platforms in the sim". GGTharos simply said they actually weren't as powerful as they are in real life.

 

So what? Either way, it's hard to kill FC3 planes with the Mig21, and people who do deserve credit. GGTharos saying they don't is mean and misses the point.

 

Excuse me, but someone did say the R3R was modeled correctly. In fact, it was you...You are saying GGTharos is wrong to say the R3R is improperly modeled, thus you are saying it is properly modeled.

 

"GGTharos thinks the R-3R is improperly modeled" =/= "tsb47 thinks the R-3R is properly modeled"... But the issue is irrelevant anyway. Regardless of whether the R-3R is properly modeled, it's still hard to kill FC3 planes with the Mig21 and so the point still stands.

 

Excuse me ? Do you genuinely think I hadn't understood the sarcasm in your first post ?

 

... but you took it so seriously?

 

By the way, since we're talking about the R3R, do you think there's enough data available to fix its FM, like you did for the AIM-9M, AIM-120C and AIM-7M/F ?

 

Please also nerf the rebel blasters. WAY too OP.

[EngineerFalcon]

I love a good internet argument!

Trust me, I do too !

 

I don't have my Oxford Dictionary of Gaming Slang on me. But surely OP can mean both? Let's move this point to the semantics thread.

So we just had a different interpretation of the word, fine.

 

 

So what? Either way, it's hard to kill FC3 planes with the Mig21, and people who do deserve credit. GGTharos saying they don't is mean and misses the point.

Yes, killing FC3 planes is indeed difficult. I don't think GGTharos said that, rather he was comparing the DCS matchup with the real life one, then things got heated, because of a couple of users who had a, eh, "superior" attitude towards FC3 players.

 

 

"GGTharos thinks the R-3R is improperly modeled" =/= "tsb47 thinks the R-3R is properly modeled"...

Excuse me, it was the impression I got from your post.

 

 

... but you took it so seriously?

I usually don't take things that seriously, it's just that I was very confused by your edit.

 

 

Please also nerf the rebel blasters. WAY too OP.

Ok, now that is genuinely funny.

[Art-J]

OK, this is getting silly.

 

R3R apparently has some overoptimistic performance traits, compared to RL missile. True, Tharos & Co. are right.

 

Fighting Eagles and flankers with MiG in DCS on popular servers is somewhere between impossible and difficult. True, Tsb47 & Co. are right.

 

If both sides are right, what this argument is about? You guys are talking about completely separate things. It's a classic apples and oranges case. RL specs of weapons and systems vs. their sloppy modelling in DCS are important topics, but irrelevant here and may (actually NEED) to be discussed somewhere else, preferably DCSW section, with.. ehm... ever-fixing-DCS2-Messiah (yeah, right) behind the corner ;).

 

This thread is (or rather was, before all off-topic) about tactics required by MiG flyers in DCS, as it is programmed today, no matter whether they use stones or laser beams, whether the game is more "arcade" or "realistic", 'cause as I said, that's the subject for another debate.

 

P.S. - I'm a vintage-planes flyer only, so I don't know anything about missiles and missile mods You guys have been mentioning above, but if Tharos made some of these for US weapons (If I understand correctly), can't You do the same with R3R and promote the "revised" version on 104th, or is it encrypted somehow?

[EngineerFalcon]

P.S. - I'm a vintage-planes flyer only, so I don't know anything about missiles and missile mods You guys have been mentioning above, but if Tharos made some of these for US weapons (If I understand correctly), can't You do the same with R3R and promote the "revised" version on 104th, or is it encrypted somehow?

 

The missile overhaul mod is by IASGATG. I think the main problem in making such a mod, apart from research, is getting servers to use it as it puts quite a restriction on players, since many people prefer to fly vanilla. I don't know any servers that currently use such mods, sadly.

[GGTharos]

Actually it's by both of us, IASGATG made the final product; we aren't entirely the only contributors, either - there were people in the background either helping with the CFD or providing information, etc.

 

The missile overhaul mod is by IASGATG. I think the main problem in making such a mod, apart from research, is getting servers to use it as it puts quite a restriction on players, since many people prefer to fly vanilla. I don't know any servers that currently use such mods, sadly.

[EngineerFalcon]

Actually it's by both of us, IASGATG made the final product; we aren't entirely the only contributors, either - there were people in the background either helping with the CFD or providing information, etc.

 

My bad. I kept hearing of it as "Sgat's missile mod", didn't know it was a larger effort.

[tsb47]

Trust me, I do too !

 

 

So we just had a different interpretation of the word, fine.

 

 

 

Yes, killing FC3 planes is indeed difficult. I don't think GGTharos said that, rather he was comparing the DCS matchup with the real life one, then things got heated, because of a couple of users who had a, eh, "superior" attitude towards FC3 players.

 

 

 

Excuse me, it was the impression I got from your post.

 

 

 

I usually don't take things that seriously, it's just that I was very confused by your edit.

 

 

 

Ok, now that is genuinely funny.

 

Wait! Wait! Wait!

 

Is that it? (looks disappointed, kicks pebbles).

 

...at least they wrote a newsstory about us: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/internet-argument-resolved-2014030584268

[Nerdwing]

Will this mod be released on the DCS: Mod forums in the other thread? Sorry if this is offtopic, but this change will get a good few friends interested in DCS again!

[Charly_Owl]

The amount of bruised ego in this thread is hilariously high.

 

Contrary to "popular" belief, I think the sheer workload in the mig-21 alone is a serious disadvantage compared to the F-15. Those who believe the current FC3 F-15 is "more difficult to fly than the mig21" are completely delusional.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Charly_Owl

[Nerdwing]

Who is arguing that?

[Hadwell]

The mig21 is more difficult to use in general compared to the f15 even just landing it, so a missile or two are a bit off, pfft... Get over it already.

 

Anyway, I think... that you should try the mig-21 online against modern fighters, it's really intense. Don't diss it till you've gotten to the point where getting kills isn't dumb luck, but thought out plan, and you've figured out when to stay and fight or when to find someone that won't get you killed and make him rage quit instead.

 

I really hate the aim-120 cause it makes flying the 21 hell, but I still fly the f-15 from time to time, and I fly pretty much everything else too, lots of su-25T...

 

The mig-21 really gets my heart rate up when I get in a fight, that's why I spend so much time on the forums here, why I mostly fly the mig-21, why I mostly use IR missiles(strong advocate for the 2xR13M1 4xR-60M loadout), and why most, but not all, of my youtube videos are in the mig-21.

 

No way to lose might be an exaggeration, but if you compare the f-15 survivability to the 21s, not a big one.

 

If there's no way to lose, whats the sense in even playing? even killing attack planes, you can at least have a feeling of accomplishment that you saved ground units.

 

It's not a real war, where it makes sense to want to have no way to lose, instead, for me anyway, the more difficult I can make it for myself, within reason, the more fun I have.

 

one of the things that I'm constantly trying to do is get people to actually fight me, I reasoned that if I always take IR missiles, eventually someone will see me and try to shake me, that's when the fun starts... most just launch a missile at 20+ km and run away, so just getting wvr can be a big accomplishment, depending on who I'm up against.

 

no superiority whatever, I just have more fun and feel like it's a lot more rewarding flying the mig-21...

Edited March 13, 2015 by Hadwell

[Frostie]

The amount of bruised ego in this thread is hilariously high.

 

Contrary to "popular" belief, I think the sheer workload in the mig-21 alone is a serious disadvantage compared to the F-15. Those who believe the current FC3 F-15 is "more difficult to fly than the mig21" are completely delusional.

Why jump into a discussion and try and cause an argument about something that never happened. Nobody has said anything that you describe yet you put it in quote marks as though those words were quoted.

Seems you post on here claiming someone is deluded whilst showing the only deluded one here is you. Good post.:thumbup:

[Eihort]

Anyway, I think... that you should try the mig-21 online against modern fighters, it's really intense. Don't diss it till you've gotten to the point where getting kills isn't dumb luck, but thought out plan, and you've figured out when to stay and fight or when to find someone that won't get you killed and make him rage quit instead.

 

I'm with Hadwell.

 

[tsb47]

I'm with Hadwell.

 

#jesuishadwell

[Cobra847]

is #difficultygate over?

[Folgore1987]

Is the google search battle over?