MW 50 always on?

[Solty]

No, that would only be in the absence of MW50.

Oh.OK.

[DieHard]

Well that is the question, will the gauge still read 1.8 even with no juice in the tank, but you wont see the boost, or if it should stop at 1.4 when the juice is gone, I thought that was how it was in the Dora, when the MW50 was no longer available, but I dont remember now...

 

I fly Bf-109, full realism, in MP on the ACG or DoW servers. I am not positively sure whether the MW-50 is in fact setup for boost on the servers.

 

I get 1.8 ata with the boost engaged (keyboard "e") at full throttle and I get 1.8 ata without the boost engaged with full throttle. The MW/Fuel Selector Handle is in the up position, I do not touch it. The MW-50 Pressure Gage indicator is within the boost limits when it is engaged.

 

There is no audible indication of more power being achieved when the MW-50 Power Switch is clicked on at full throttle. It is too quiet in the cockpit when the engines are running normally at 2400 and the canopy is closed.

 

I do not sense any increase in power when boost is engaged.

 

I am assuming this aircraft is still in beta.

Edited March 14, 2015 by DieHard

[Charly_Owl]

I fly Bf-109, full realism, in MP on the ACG or DoW servers. I am not positively sure whether the MW-50 is in fact setup for boost on the servers.

 

I get 1.8 ata with the boost engaged (keyboard "e") at full throttle and I get 1.8 ata without the boost engaged with full throttle. The MW/Fuel Selector Handle is in the up position, I do not touch it. The MW-50 Pressure Gage indicator is within the boost limits when it is engaged.

 

There is no audible indication of more power being achieved when the MW-50 Power Switch is clicked on at full throttle. It is too quiet in the cockpit when the engines are running normally at 2400 and the canopy is closed.

 

I do not sense any increase in power when boost is engaged.

 

I am assuming this aircraft is still in beta.

 

No, MW50 does work correctly. Check my quick guide at page 26 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20586543/DCS%20Bf.109K-4%20Guide.pdf

[NineLine]

There is no audible indication of more power being achieved when the MW-50 Power Switch is clicked on at full throttle. It is too quiet in the cockpit when the engines are running normally at 2400 and the canopy is closed.

 

Do you have some sort of indication that this was the case in real life? That you hear a large audible change when boost was engaged?

[silentconvo]

Sith could you please ask what the intended behaviour should be?

 

Should there be a stop at 1.45 ata that has not been implemented yet? Or are we incorrect about this and will exceeded 1.45 ata damage the engine and has that been modelled?

 

I understand if not all this has not been included in the simulation as the K-4 is a beta after but I am certainly curious as to what Yo-Yo thinks he certainly has far better sources than we do.

[NineLine]

I've asked him before, and stated that he feels this is operating as intended.

[shagrat]

The MW50 is not a nitro boost! It cools the mixture through condensation and allows for higher boost pressure, prevents premature detonation of the mixture etc. (Manual P.46) ...and it reduces in effectiveness at altitudes above 6k ft.

It does not change the RPM, neither should it make a louder explosion. So where should a changed/louder engine noise come from?

Does your car's engine make a different noise when you use 98 ROZ octane fuel instead of 91 ROZ?

I hope it doesn't...

[silentconvo]

I've asked him before, and stated that he feels this is operating as intended.

 

So the engine being able to reach 1.8 ata without the use of the MW50 system is correct behaviour? If that is the case is it permitted to exceed 1.45 without the MW50 system? I have been searching the manual for the answer for this and I haven't been able to figure it out.

 

The MW50 is not a nitro boost! It cools the mixture through condensation and allows for higher boost pressure, prevents premature detonation of the mixture etc. (Manual P.46) ...and it reduces in effectiveness at altitudes above 6k ft.

It does not change the RPM, neither should it make a louder explosion. So where should a changed/louder engine noise come from?

Does your car's engine make a different noise when you use 98 ROZ octane fuel instead of 91 ROZ?

I hope it doesn't...

 

I think the increase in prop pitch will increase the volume of the prop noise. I had a quick test with the p-51 and it seems to be true at least in that case.

Edited March 15, 2015 by silentconvo

[sobek]

So the engine being able to reach 1.8 ata without the use of the MW50 system is correct behaviour?

 

MW50 does nothing to the boost pressure.

[Siegfried]

Only a few questions. If you add a volume of water and methanol in compressor with the same air, there's not a increase of pressure by reduction of volume available for air? Or maybe this is compensated by cooling effect the hot compressed air? cold air more dense and less pressure. Or maybe that is the little increase in ATA when MW50 activates.

 

Sorry if I dont explain well, english not my native language.

 

 

Anyway, when I go full throttle at 1.75 ATA without MW50 activated, I can go many minutes, more 10 minutes without engine fault. I thought that MW50 is intended more for sustained full power and not for reach that full power.

 

If I can go +10 minutes 1.75 with or without MW50, what is the reason for MW50?

 

Another question. I think that MW50 with wrong rear tank contens in kraftstoff causes that fuel tank being contaminated with water metanol and after a few minutes the engine stops. I check that but otherwise, when I select MW50 and I have fuel in rear tank nothing occurs at full power. MW50 system on but the motor go many minutes without fault. I think that in both cases the engine breaks according to the manual.

 

I have to add that I have not done very extensive testing and I know that this plane is BETA now.

 

Just to clarify, I'm just wondering, not hunting for phantom bugs.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Siegfried

[shagrat]

I was only referring to the noise increase. I agree that in "wrong" conditions the engine should fail or at least et damaged...

Running full power 1.85 ATA for long periods should cook off the oil due to excessive heat without the cooling effect of the MW50.

Which is NIR a good thing for any engine :D

May be there is still some work to do on the engine damage model...

[Art-J]

I don't think DCS models pre-ignition and detonation yet. In a Mustang, you can throw prop and MAP levers like an idiot, wherever you like and it will never cause any engine damage.

 

Which would make MW50 in 109 (and 190?) kind of redundant, because IF people can fly at max ATA and RPM all day long no matter whether MW is turned on or not, then what's the point of flipping the switch anyway?

 

P.S. - I say "if", 'cause I haven't flown either of them for quite a while, so I can't confirm. Time to dust them off and do some test flights, I suppose.

[DieHard]

"Which would make MW50 in 109 (and 190?) kind of redundant, because IF people can fly at max ATA and RPM all day long no matter whether MW is turned on or not, then what's the point of flipping the switch anyway?"

 

Exactly! What is the point of flipping the switch in the Bf-109?

Edited March 15, 2015 by DieHard

[DieHard]

Do you have some sort of indication that this was the case in real life? That you hear a large audible change when boost was engaged?

 

 

Good question.

 

I do not.

 

Real life? I am not a real-life pilot. Have flown in very noisy single and dual engine civilian aircraft. I have seen what a nitro-boost does in a car when it is engaged, but MW-50 is not nitrous.

 

Google: MW-50+Bf-109K4+test data

=======================

http://www.bing.com/search?q=mw-50+bf-109k4+test+data&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR

 

Is the original test data from Messerschmidt of the prototype and later post-manufacturing on-ground and in-air test data available to the public for reference purposes? It must have been built and evaluated during the manufacturing process, do the records of doing so still exist? And if so, are the records available for a look-see?

 

Does recorded film of the original testing of the era still exist, with sound?

 

(later edit)

Just flew DCS Fw-190. When I engage the MW-50 there is a definite audible increase in engine noise. Granted I had the canopy partially open in flight. I definitely can fly away from P-51D in pursuit with MW-50 engaged on a flat out level, low altitude run.

Edited March 15, 2015 by DieHard

[silentconvo]

MW50 does nothing to the boost pressure.

 

I never claimed it did, but MW50 does have an anti detonate effect. So my question was about whether the engine should fail and/or sustain damage when operated at that pressure without MW50.

[silentconvo]

I don't think DCS models pre-ignition and detonation yet. In a Mustang, you can throw prop and MAP levers like an idiot, wherever you like and it will never cause any engine damage.

 

Which would make MW50 in 109 (and 190?) kind of redundant, because IF people can fly at max ATA and RPM all day long no matter whether MW is turned on or not, then what's the point of flipping the switch anyway?

 

P.S. - I say "if", 'cause I haven't flown either of them for quite a while, so I can't confirm. Time to dust them off and do some test flights, I suppose.

 

You cannot do this in the D-9. The engine management system won't let you, that is why I am so curious about this aspect of the 109 engine management.

[sobek]

So my question was about whether the engine should fail and/or sustain damage when operated at that pressure without MW50.

 

Well that's really not what you asked, but nevermind. Yes the engine should sustain damage when detonation occurs. The rod bearings will be submitted to excessive wear because peak pressure is much higher and occurs while the rod and piston are essentially "locked" due to the crankshaft being at or close to top dead center.

 

Additionally there will most likely be heat dissipation problems that usually manifest themselves as hotspots when the lubrication oil film tears due to the oil being too viscose.

[NineLine]

So the engine being able to reach 1.8 ata without the use of the MW50 system is correct behaviour? If that is the case is it permitted to exceed 1.45 without the MW50 system? I have been searching the manual for the answer for this and I haven't been able to figure it out.

 

I was told that the gauge would still show 1.8 even after the MW50 was emptied, but you would not get anymore benefits from the system. I am not sure why, I mean you are still moving the throttle into that boost range, so I assume it has something to do with that. I will see if I can get Yo-Yo to explain it better.

[NineLine]

Honestly, I went and jumped into the 109 right after posting my response to you, and I do indeed hear a difference in the engine when using the MW50 system, so not sure what to tell you there :)

 

Good question.

 

I do not.

 

Real life? I am not a real-life pilot. Have flown in very noisy single and dual engine civilian aircraft. I have seen what a nitro-boost does in a car when it is engaged, but MW-50 is not nitrous.

 

Google: MW-50+Bf-109K4+test data

=======================

http://www.bing.com/search?q=mw-50+bf-109k4+test+data&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR

 

Is the original test data from Messerschmidt of the prototype and later post-manufacturing on-ground and in-air test data available to the public for reference purposes? It must have been built and evaluated during the manufacturing process, do the records of doing so still exist? And if so, are the records available for a look-see?

 

Does recorded film of the original testing of the era still exist, with sound?

[sobek]

but you would not get anymore benefits from the system.

 

The benefit of MW50 being that the engine tolerates the high boost for an extended period of time. So basically if MW50 is not present, running the engine at 1.8ata should reduce its service life a lot faster than running it with MW50.

[DieHard]

(re: Message #44)

 

Thanks for checking.

 

I just flew the Fw-190 with the MW-50 engaged---that I can hear the engine power increase.

 

I do not hear it in the Bf-109. I will pay more attention.

 

Thanks.

[NineLine]

The benefit of MW50 being that the engine tolerates the high boost for an extended period of time. So basically if MW50 is not present, running the engine at 1.8ata should reduce its service life a lot faster than running it with MW50.

 

Yes, sorry, thought that was apparent, that you probably shouldnt run the throttle wide open with the MW50 tank dry... this is the same with the 190 or any plane with this system I think.

 

That might even be the reason the gauge still moves to 1.8, to tell you that you are running the throttle that high if you dont realize it... dunno. Be a question for their 190 pilot I suppose :)

[sobek]

Well the ata gauge shows manifold pressure, and manifold pressure is not dependant on MW50. The compressor can still provide boost just fine, it's just that the rest of the engine doesn't like it all that much.

[NineLine]

Well the ata gauge shows manifold pressure, and manifold pressure is not dependant on MW50. The compressor can still provide boost just fine, it's just that the rest of the engine doesn't like it all that much.

 

Ok, that makes more sense then, I'm not great at explaining this stuff :) Thanks!

[Art-J]

So, the bottom line is, if we want any water injection systems to make sense in future DCS WWII modules at all (not only German ones, P-47 is coming!), it would be cool (no pun intended) if ED could introduce/improve game code related to overboosting and all resulting consequences.