F-15C Dogfight Frustration!

[nullsys]

Hi all,

So I've been tootling along in the F-15 for a week, and despite excellent one-on-one coaching, youtube tutorials and the likes. I still have a problem in almost every encounter.

 

I'm often firing 120C's well within range, taking evasive maneuvers and still getting shot down, with barely any kills.

 

Do I need more than 10+ hrs practice in MP to become effective, despite reading a lot, watching videos and being tutored?

[Lord_Pyro]

No, 10 hrs should be more than sufficient.

[TAW_Blaze]

You need hundreds of hours of experience if not thousands, even if you're taught the right stuff.

[VTJS17_Fire]

Pulling 30 G's at 100 knots per hour is much less effective as 3 G's at 1000 knots per hour.

 

:huh:

 

In which aircraft you can pull 30g?

And knots are simply miles per hour. So with 100 knots you traveling 100 nautical miles per hour.

 

And 3g at 1000 knots (KIAS for instance) aren't much more effective, than 6g at 500 KIAS.

 

Why? You'll have (mostly) a higher turn rate, which means you pull more degrees per second, so you turn faster.

 

 

regards,

Fire

[=Mac=]

I knew a fellow who pulled 30 Gs at 100 knots. He was a cartoon character running from a coyote... :)

[Stuge]

>10 hours = introduction to modern air combat

 

>100 hours = beginner - should be able to regularly score kills on MP servers

 

>1000 hours = experienced pilot - a capable and efficient combat machine

 

>10000 hours = potential mastery depending on what the individual's talent allows and what he/she is willing to practice until mastery can be said achieved.

 

This is just my guesstimate of how simulation flight hours reflect on combat skill :D

 

Keep in mind though air combat skills transition between different aircraft types and different simulations.

 

Thus, if you've spent hundreds or thousands of hours in a WW2 fighter sim, for example, that will still tremendously help with modern jet fighters as well.

 

Air combat is such a complex skill set, I think it could be compared to for example playing a musical instrument. So how much does say a professional solo violinist practice? A quick online search for guidelines reveals a figure of 5 hours per day.

 

So, 5 hours of DCS per day?. What about 5 hours a day of pure dogfighting? Now that's starting to sound hard to the core :D

[MacEwan]

Tacview also helps. Being able to review what went wrong and why (and how missiles behave) helped me get very good with the F-15. I also found that later on while flying I could better visualize the battle space because of reviewing previous flights with tacview, it helped improve my situational awareness.

[Exorcet]

The line between getting kills and not getting kills, dying and not dying, can be really thin.

 

Yes it is. If you're 90% proficient, then expect to lose badly to someone who is 95% efficient.

 

With missiles as they are now a 1v1 fight can end in pretty dangerous territory. They bleed speed so fast when they're out of boost that you practically need to get close enough to score hits while the rocket is still running if you're fighting someone really good. While doing that you need to make sure that you're not putting yourself in a similar position for your enemy's missiles. There isn't a lot of room for error.

 

Also consider that players online can also cooperate, which is a huge advantage over flying alone.

[Cali]

Just keep trying, practicing, reading and watching videos....you'll get better over time.

[FLANKERATOR]

Even 'black belt' pilots (read veterans having spent huge amount of times flying PvP) do mistakes sometimes;

 

IMO, try first to focus on improving your situational awareness; think of it as a red line or a dynamic limit that you should not cross to be able to drag the missile out of range and that you should get as close as possible to before firing your own missile in order to maximize your kill probability; It is dynamic because it depends on the engagement's parameters.

 

As a general rule, the more altitude advantage you have over your opponent, the earlier you can fire and the more escaping room you have at your disposal. Add speed to that equation and you'd want to fly high and fast. Work with your radar and ensure nobody is closing in on you unnoticed.

 

Every time you land back home safe after exchanging fire, congratulate yourself, go watch Tacview and assess the engagement and see if you could delay your shooting a bit more; almost always shoot by pairs of AMRAAM's in TWS mode. Remain patient and away from the 'red line', resist greediness and you'll start getting kills and making it back home in one piece.

[LuSi_6]

>10 hours = introduction to modern air combat

 

>100 hours = beginner - should be able to regularly score kills on MP servers

 

>1000 hours = experienced pilot - a capable and efficient combat machine

 

>10000 hours = potential mastery depending on what the individual's talent allows and what he/she is willing to practice until mastery can be said achieved.

 

This is just my guesstimate of how simulation flight hours reflect on combat skill :D

 

Keep in mind though air combat skills transition between different aircraft types and different simulations.

 

Thus, if you've spent hundreds or thousands of hours in a WW2 fighter sim, for example, that will still tremendously help with modern jet fighters as well.

 

Air combat is such a complex skill set, I think it could be compared to for example playing a musical instrument. So how much does say a professional solo violinist practice? A quick online search for guidelines reveals a figure of 5 hours per day.

 

So, 5 hours of DCS per day?. What about 5 hours a day of pure dogfighting? Now that's starting to sound hard to the core :D

 

yout time estimations seems a "little" bit too much?!? after 100h flying the F-15 you should have mastered the plane. It's still just a FC3 plane, Mig-21 or A10C different story for sure, but these 3 buttons you need in FC3 should get you really quick to succsess :huh:

[BitMaster]

Talk to those guys who shot you down and ask them what you did wrong when and how.

 

It takes way more than 10h to learn dogfighting, given that you know EVERYTHING else about airplanes and flying.

 

If you just started flying at all, give yourself some month, better years to develop the senses and mindset.

 

I am flying Sims since....LONG TIME...and I never got a good DogFighter despite I had excellent trainers and years to spend....well. I am the ground pounder and avoid A2A whenever I can. It is not said that you will ever become excellent.. some make it, some never make it.

 

It's like playing chess, it takes you 2h to learn it but a lifetime to master it.

 

Bit

[BitMaster]

yout time estimations seems a "little" bit too much?!? after 100h flying the F-15 you should have mastered the plane. It's still just a FC3 plane, Mig-21 or A10C different story for sure, but these 3 buttons you need in FC3 should get you really quick to succsess :huh:

 

 

It's neither the buttons or the AC you sit in, it's the mindset and senses that you either have or have not yet developed.

 

If your SA is way off, no Joystick will help you, regardless of Hall Sensors, Rudder Pedals and a neat Throttle stick, anybody with more SA and experience will shoot you from the sky with inferior PC-Parts but better brains and skills.

 

Bit

[LuSi_6]

very true, it was just like 10000h and stuff that sound wrong to me.

[jcbak]

yout time estimations seems a "little" bit too much?!? after 100h flying the F-15 you should have mastered the plane. It's still just a FC3 plane, Mig-21 or A10C different story for sure, but these 3 buttons you need in FC3 should get you really quick to succsess :huh:

This thread isn't about managing the aircraft systems of the F15. That's obviously not a factor in a FC3 aircraft. BVR engagement is not easy to master....AT ALL. Like other things, the more you learn about it, the more you realize how much you don't know. Go up against these guys like BLAZE and STUGE and many other veterans.......you will see my point very quickly as you spin into the ground. I suggest you jump on the 104 Phoenix server, Air to Air. Make sure there are plenty of guys from the 104th that are flying......let me know how you make out. You may want to make sure there are no children in the room....there will be some cursing..... :))

[LuSi_6]

This thread isn't about managing the aircraft systems of the F15. That's obviously not a factor in a FC3 aircraft. BVR engagement is not easy to master....AT ALL. Like other things, the more you learn about it, the more you realize how much you don't know. Go up against these guys like BLAZE and STUGE and many other veterans.......you will see my point very quickly as you spin into the ground. I suggest you jump on the 104 Phoenix server, Air to Air. Make sure there are plenty of guys from the 104th that are flying......let me know how you make out. You may want to make sure there are no children in the room....there will be some cursing..... :))

 

true :)

 

OT: who needs BVR when you can have a Mig? :music_whistling:

 

[BitMaster]

When fighting A2A, those are the minimum things you need to have present and be fully aware of for all AC involved.

 

Position

Speed

Heading

Altitude

AC-Type

Weapons

 

You may only have a few seconds to cook your own receipe from the above ingredients, that is called Situational Awareness, the ultimate key to success in A2A combat.

 

You should also know by heart what move to pull when your adversary comes in from above, below, 90° offset, higher or lower than you, same speed, less speed and supersonic speed. If you pull the wrong move and have a good pilot against you you might have lost before it even started BANG !

 

It takes many many huindreds of BVR and dogfights to develop such skills and senses, some never achieve this to the point where they always have a fair chance, some are wonder pilots and have all that almost naturally.

 

I am way too old for that A2A stuff LoL, I know my limits and I know what I am willing to do...aka how much stress I am willing to take to have 2 hours of fun...heck, that's why I stick mostly to A2G capable vehicles. With 45+ I found out that reflexes suffer and the will to survive virtually just for fun degrades by a significant amount if there are alternatives in the game to get my share of fun out of the 104th server that I fly on regularly. I do knopw exactly why I dont hop into a A2A jet and challange those guys, I rather take out their tanks, 1 by 1, slowly, patience too...and fly home alive below 15m :)

 

DCS has so much to offer

 

Bit

[TAW_Blaze]

It's about 99% practicing the right stuff until you can do it with the screen turned off. The rest 1% is talent, reaction time, and whatnot.

 

What I find most helpful other than practicing is a good memory. The instruments have a bunch of limits and some other properties that do stupid things, it's often more practical to keep things in mind.

[Stuge]

very true, it was just like 10000h and stuff that sound wrong to me.

 

You make a good point, 10000 may not be enough.

 

At least not according to Time magazine :D

 

http://healthland.time.com/2013/05/20/10000-hours-may-not-make-a-master-after-all/

[strikeeagle]

Remember....it's just a video game :)

[Stuge]

Remember....it's just a video game :)

 

Flight simming for many becomes a lifelong hobby...

[strikeeagle]

LLLLLLLMMMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

That's how I imagine some..."immersion"

[Stuge]

That WoW guy knows what it's all about ;)

[sslechta]

Hey! Who put my picture up there! :)

[GGTharos]

>10 hours = introduction to modern air combat

 

You're reeling from the sense of stuff that you need to know, or you're raging because 'you've tried it all' and you're still getting shot down. Probably, everyone else is cheating. You don't understand why the few chaff puffs you popped didn't decoy that missile.

 

>100 hours = beginner - should be able to regularly score kills on MP servers

You've just started figuring out that there are some very simple rules to not getting killed. You probably heard of things like 'radar notch', 'corner speed', 'view the tacview', but you probably don't know what it all really means yet.

 

>1000 hours = experienced pilot - a capable and efficient combat machine

You can review your tacviews, effectively notch, use the obvious game-the-game moves, time things semi-right, and if you're really dedicated, by this time you're doing some serious analysis. If you're not one of the lucky few, you still fly right into a bunch of bandits and then wonder why you got killed :D

 

>10000 hours = potential mastery depending on what the individual's talent allows and what he/she is willing to practice until mastery can be said achieved.

You're probably just stagnated/plateau'd at the previous level, but you can now say/understand some new things like F-Pole, E-Pole, A-Pole, crank, notch, buster, gate, spike, and you have a fondness for merging on the deck and failing to reverse when you should, while always succeeding at reversing turns when you shouldn't. Your idea of 'going vertical' is a mach 2 climb to 80000'. You don't believe the other guy 'got you' since you crashed into the ground. Maneuver kill may be a thing you haven't heard of yet. Besides, it doesn't get credited to the scoreboard, right? But that won't stop you from telling the other guy that you 'had him', even though you run out of fuel as you got on his six and crashed. You rant and rave about R. Shaw's book and 'Art of the Kill'. I mean 10000! It's gotta be worth some badge or achievement thingy ... and besides ... It's over 9000!

Unless you're one of the lucky few and you know a whole lot better - but then you're probably not posting much (I know, I know, I just burned myself), and when you do, people ignore your advice because 'it's hard', and 'hours make the skill' anyway.

 

This is just my guesstimate of how simulation flight hours reflect on combat skill :D

Hours very quickly start to mean diddly squat if you don't get formal instruction or have the right attitude :D

 

So, 5 hours of DCS per day?. What about 5 hours a day of pure dogfighting? Now that's starting to sound hard to the core :D

Real pilots do it with 200 hours of yearly practice, or less. They'll kick your butt and you won't even know what happened, unless you're one of the lucky few.

 

I'm just making a point regarding the skill level to hours link with an embedded attempt at comedy :D

Edited January 8, 2015 by GGTharos