MiG-21bis front gear wheel made of Flubber?

[DarkFib3r]

I have recently purchased the MiG-21bis and so far I am having a blast. I have been struggling with landing and I think I localized my problem: the "bounciness" of the front gear wheel.

 

When I would land a little fast, the front nose would come down hard if I didn't keep a solid amount of back pressure on the stick. When this happens, the entire aircraft lifts off again 15-20 feet, only to descend right away and striking the runway hard, crushing all three gears. I now make sure that I keep a large amount of back pressure on the stick on touchdown so that the nose wheel does not prematurely hit the runway and my landing success rate has now improved dramatically.

 

Aside from the behavior described above, I have noticed oddities with the front wheel. I have seen the aircraft bouncing its nose on the runway at a complete standstill, like a tricked out low-rider strutting its stuff. Is this intentional? I would think that if you smacked your nose wheel gear too hard after the back wheels were touched down, you would simply pop your front tire or crush your front gear. I would not think that a hard nose bounce would propel the entire aircraft back up into the air 15 or 20 feet.

 

I am by no means an expert. Now that I know that I have to be super careful with the front nose gear, I am confident that I can have successful landings. But it would be nice if the "bounciness" was adjusted to be, to me at least, a little more realistic.

 

Great game and keep up the good work!

[Art-J]

I have been struggling with landing and I think I localized my problem: the "bounciness" of the front gear wheel.

 

With all due respect, I'd rather localize the problem in crappy landing technique :D. Since when planes with tricycle landing gear can be shoved onto the runway front-wheel-first? MiG requires quite fast approach with lots of pitch up during flare and gentle touchdown on the mains-first. You've already noticed that, so just watch some youtube vids of guys doing smooth landings, note speeds and decent rates and practice. You're on the right track.

 

The forward visibility during flare is non-existent, almost like in WWII planes, but that's just how it was in this bird. On the other hand, once it touches down you can literally drop the nose on the runway and nothing wrong's gonna happen anymore.

 

As for the bouncy-bouncy syndrome after crashlanding and coming to a stop, yep, some planes in DCS like to do that. In case of MiG it usually happens when the landing gear is broken. No, it's definitely not intentional, just one of the many DCS glitches. We gotta live with it for now. Provisional solution - don't damage You landing gear ;)

[joey45]

Could you post a track of your landings please.

 

So we can evaluate your landings..

[DarkFib3r]

...once it touches down you can literally drop the nose on the runway and nothing wrong's gonna happen anymore...

 

This is what I thought I was doing - back wheels were safely on the ground, but then the front nose kind of catapults into the runway because of a lack of pressure on the back stick, causing the whole aircraft to lift off again.

 

But the primary point, and you make it, is that I need to improve my landings :-) With that, I cannot disagree. But I was finding it strange that the whole aircraft would propel itself back into the air from a hard nose wheel impact.

 

Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated!

[DarkFib3r]

Could you post a track of your landings please.

 

So we can evaluate your landings..

 

Will do! I am confident that I will mess up a landing or two in the near future because I let the nose slam down too hard after touchdown. I look forward to any pointers on how to improve.

[lmp]

This is what I thought I was doing - back wheels were safely on the ground, but then the front nose kind of catapults into the runway because of a lack of pressure on the back stick, causing the whole aircraft to lift off again.

 

This is surprising to me. If anything dropping the nose gear should make you less likely to lift off, because your angle of attack decreases. Dropping the tail prematurely in taildraggers has the effect you're describing (it's one of the few reasons why they're considered more challenging to fly), but dropping your nose in a tricycle gear aircraft should do the opposite. Are you sure you're not just bouncing on your main gear?

[Tango]

She's a delta - land slow and with high pitch attitude, but with a slow sink rate.

 

It is going to feel very slow but aim for about 300 kph. You WILL lose sight of the runway, this is why you need to adopt the "Space Shuttle" type approach profile (steep(er), with an early flare). Another technique is the curved approach, but takes a bit more finesse on roll-out otherwise you can over-control and get into pilot-induced oscillation due to the roll inertia.

 

Take her up to 1000 m and get used to flying her slowly with loss of the visual horizon. Practice slow, level turns in this configuration. You will find it is easier than you think.

 

In the landing attitude, the horizon line is approximately just below the RADAR distance indicator.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Tango

[Hadwell]

you want to land on the rear wheels with enough lift left to hold the nose up so you can gently bring the nose down, so that the front wheel touches AFTER the rear wheels have already touched

 

don't just let the nose wheel drop, pull back on the stick and control the rate, so that it gently touches

Edited January 7, 2015 by Hadwell

[ptako]

This is surprising to me. If anything dropping the nose gear should make you less likely to lift off, because your angle of attack decreases. Dropping the tail prematurely in taildraggers has the effect you're describing (it's one of the few reasons why they're considered more challenging to fly), but dropping your nose in a tricycle gear aircraft should do the opposite. Are you sure you're not just bouncing on your main gear?

 

It happens.

When you touchdown with too high speed and lower your nose too fast, front wheel will bounce raising your AoA again and because of high speed it might be enough to lift off again.

 

I don't know if suspension is overmodeled or such bounces could happened in real but in game they do.

 

There is one cure for that - touchdown with correct speed. In that scenario even with such bumping you won't find yourself in the air again.

[ttaylor0024]

Don't drop the nose on the ground when you land. Release a little back pressure, but keep the nose off the ground and then smoothly place the nose-wheel on the ground. It will bounce back up if you slam the nose down, as well as risking structural failure of the nose-wheel, as it's only designed to take less than 15% of the aircraft's weight on average.

[ff4life4]

I have noticed that the front wheel, or suspension tends to be a little "bouncy" as well.

 

I'm landing on the rear mains, and slowly bring the nose down, but sometimes i feel a mild "sea-saw" effect between front and back. I have never experienced anything like it in the a10 or f15, where it feels like it "sticks" to the pavement easier.

 

 

Just my personal observations

[Art-J]

When I was writing about "dropping the nose gear on the runway", I was assuming gentle touchdown with reasonable speeds (300-320) was done already. Later, as You guys say, doing it "by the book", one should lower the nose slowly. But, with my stiff and short TWH joystick it's hardly possible, so the nose usually drops and bounces a bit, yet without any structural/tyre failures whatsoever. It never causes launching the plane back in the air, though, so I'd guess DarkFib3r's touchdown speed was just too high and increased AoA indeed caused another lifoff. Training correct approach speeds and descent rates should solve the problem.

[159_Archer]

When landing in the MiG, it's also important to understand how the 'blown' flaps work; Bleed air from the engine pushes out your flaps and also provide a 'cushion' of air under the wings. If you throttle back too-much (sorry -can't remember the figure off hand) then the flaps retract and lift disappears instantly! Combined with you having less thrust, the MiG will drop quickly and does then bounce heavily, or crash good-and-proper...

[DarkFib3r]

Thanks for the awesome feedback, guys. Now that I exaggerate my flare and get my touchdown speed to around 300km/hr, the landings are occurring without any bouncing issues.

[ttaylor0024]

Thanks for the awesome feedback, guys. Now that I exaggerate my flare and get my touchdown speed to around 300km/hr, the landings are occurring without any bouncing issues.

 

I had the same problem when first landing as well. I slowed my touchdown from 320 to 290 and it's worked out great

[anlq]

Throttle control is critical. You shouldn't cut down throttle to idle but lowering patiently, this will avoid slaming the MiG into runway surface in the final phase of flare. After 2 rear wheels touching the runway, keep decreasing throttle gently until the nose is down. This will keep nose wheel from bouncing. Dont worry about eating up the runway, you have chute to deploy. So try to land the bird in the big white square marks at the front end of the runway, otherwise abort landing.

Edited January 9, 2015 by anlq

[anlq]

I had the same problem when first landing as well. I slowed my touchdown from 320 to 290 and it's worked out great

 

I find high speed landing is the key. Approach speed should be about 360 (after compensation for wind), touching down speed should be about 320 with less than 1 m/s descent.

[ttaylor0024]

I find high speed landing is the key. Approach speed should be about 360 (after compensation for wind), touching down speed should be about 320 with less than 1 m/s descent.

 

Very easy to bounce back in the air at those speeds

[xxJohnxx]

I find high speed landing is the key. Approach speed should be about 360 (after compensation for wind), touching down speed should be about 320 with less than 1 m/s descent.

 

Kind of risky on short runways. I try to approach at around 320km/h and touch down at around 290km/h.

Being on the correct weight is a key factor for successful (and realistic) landings.

[Kenan]

Maximum touchdown speed shouldn't be more then 320 kp/h and the decent rate should be around 1m/s.

[anlq]

Kind of risky on short runways. I try to approach at around 320km/h and touch down at around 290km/h.

Being on the correct weight is a key factor for successful (and realistic) landings.

 

i used to land with 290kmh, but later I find 320kmh will help to keep my good relationship with ground mechanics. So 320 is my resolution. I usually come to stop at half of normal runway, so short runway is not a big deal. Low speed, low visibility, steep descent, high AOA are not good for the Bis.

[CoBlue]

When landing in the MiG, it's also important to understand how the 'blown' flaps work; Bleed air from the engine pushes out your flaps and also provide a 'cushion' of air under the wings. If you throttle back too-much (sorry -can't remember the figure off hand) then the flaps retract and lift disappears instantly! Combined with you having less thrust, the MiG will drop quickly and does then bounce heavily, or crash good-and-proper...

I can certainly feel the lift loss if I throttle back to much during the landing flare.

But it doesn't show in outside view, the flaps remain in exactly the same position, even with 0 power, is it not visually implemented yet or is it a bug?

[Golo]

I can certainly feel the lift loss if I throttle back to much during the landing flare.

But it doesn't show in outside view, the flaps remain in exactly the same position, even with 0 power, is it not visually implemented yet or is it a bug?

 

The loss of lift it is caused by lack of sufficient airflow over the flaps if you cut power, not by physical position of the flaps.

[xxJohnxx]

I can certainly feel the lift loss if I throttle back to much during the landing flare.

But it doesn't show in outside view, the flaps remain in exactly the same position, even with 0 power, is it not visually implemented yet or is it a bug?

 

As Golo already said, it is just airflow that is missing.

 

The BLC System uses bleed-air from the engine to increase lift on low speed situations when the flaps are extended. This is done by injecting air between the trailing edge of the wing and the flap (and various other places) which leads to the airflow sticking to the wing at higher angle of attacks which allows to approach at lower airspeeds.

If the engine rpm gets to low, the bleed air is not enough to keep the effect going, and this will cause a sudden loss of lift.

To prevent this happening on approach, there is a mechanical interlock mechanism, that prevents that in the real aircraft.

[CoBlue]

Thanx for the explanation guys:thumbup:

Hopefully a thorough explanation of the BLC system will be included in the manual.

Edited January 14, 2015 by CoBlue