Hawk T1 or C-101 EB

[Vivoune]

Ahoy,

 

So both of these training jets are about to come out in a matter of weeks, personally I'll probably get both and support every 3rd devs that release a quality AFM/EFM/PFM but I am also regularly trying to drag in the DCS world several friends of mine. A jet trainer seems like the perfect first module for these friends to train on, cut their teeth on the sim and get familiar with formation flying.

 

Still, I know they will only buy one module before some time, so I was wondering with the few elements that we have currently what you guys think would be the most appropriate training jet. I'm not asking which is "best" though, but rather what makes them different in terms of performance, cockpit & systems usability. I understand it might be a bit premature but I think some might still have some interesting thoughts to share on the subject.

 

I'd have loved to bring in the ED's L-39 in the picture but considering everything they're working on suffers from delays upon delays I don't think it's yet relevant.

 

Cheers!

 

EDIT: Like the title says, this thread is about the upcoming Jet trainers, not all and every other DCS modules.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Vivoune

[cichlidfan]

I don't think I would encourage anyone to get used to SFM performance so the answer, IMHO, would be whichever one can deliver an EFM first (given that both seem to be quite far from that point).

[Vivoune]

Yes, they most certainly are not interested in an SFM. Or would I dare to quote them lot "Why would I bother with a simulation that doesn't bother to simulate?". But I seem to remember reading both aircrafts will have their EFM ready for beta in a matter of weeks.

[Grigs]

If I was willing to get my friends into simulation games, I would show them the most entertaining part of it: Combat, wether it is ground attack or air/air engagment. Flaming Cliffs 3 would be my choice ;-)

[cichlidfan]

But I seem to remember reading both aircrafts will have their EFM ready for beta in a matter of weeks.

 

Avio seems to be in too much of a hurry to sell the SFM version for me to believe that, though I haven't read it anywhere that I can recall. As for VEAO, I would have agreed until I read this...

 

Sorry my bad, P40 EFM is going to testers in Feb, Hawk will come just after that.

[Slipp]

If I was willing to get my friends into simulation games, I would show them the most entertaining part of it: Combat, wether it is ground attack or air/air engagment. Flaming Cliffs 3 would be my choice ;-)

 

+1

 

I wouldn't show or recommend them trainer planes, not interesting enough and they don't provide the same gameplay value as the full blown DCS level combat jets do (and at the same price).

[Vivoune]

If I was willing to get my friends into simulation games, I would show them the most entertaining part of it: Combat, wether it is ground attack or air/air engagment. Flaming Cliffs 3 would be my choice ;-)

 

Well, everyone is in the sim for something, for me combat is an excuse to fly & train, I'm mostly having fun in the training and flying. Given the amount of studying and training there is in any proper sim I wouldn't want them to experience DCS through FC3 which is imho not where the fun is, that's a debate for another thread but I love simming because the difficulty makes everything that much more rewarding, not to take the fastest shortcut to instant action packed combat.

 

Although FC3 can be nice, refreshing and perfect for some game sessions! Still, I for example, would never have sticked to DCS if it weren't for the complexity of the A-10C, being able to fly it effectively made for one of the most satisfying time I've spent behind a screen, that's what I want them to experience, that's why I come back to DCS. FC3 doesn't provide, imho, anything that plenty of other games that they already play already does considering they're not particularly passionate about aircrafts, nor am I.

 

Thanks for your input thought! Still it's a thread about the upcoming Jet trainers, not FC3. :)

Edited January 11, 2015 by Vivoune

[King_Hrothgar]

As with others, I recommend something that can engage in combat. I also recommend EFM/PFM planes only, not some trashy SFM. Ignoring the FC3 planes, that leaves us with a pretty short list of what's combat effective and yet still relatively simple. The F-86 tops the list immediately but unfortunately it doesn't include any content atm. It does not have a campaign and is completely devoid of training missions. It is easy enough to explain with a 15 minute youtube video, but that's not really a substitute for interactive training. The MiG-15 is coming very soon though, so it will have a proper opponent online at least.

 

Other options are the choppers. The UH-1 couldn't be simpler from a systems standpoint and is of average difficulty to fly (by helicopter standards) but like the Sabre, it doesn't fully fit in currently. It's combat value is exceptionally limited given that any AI unit with a HMG will blow it out of the sky from twice the range it can effectively return fire.

 

The Ka-50 is quite a bit more complicated but easier to actually fly. It is also the dominant mud mover in the game. It's a bird that has some real depth to it and it has the most SP and MP content for it by far. However, it is a helicopter and that may not interest you and your friends. And although it is very easy to fly by helicopter standards, that's not saying a whole lot. Additionally, the navigation and autopilot systems aren't the most intuitive designs, though weapons employment is fairly straight forwards.

Edited January 11, 2015 by King_Hrothgar
Clarity

[Vivoune]

Thanks for your input Maj, I've flown the Huey and the Ka-50 regularly in DCS for some time, I think they both make for great cooperative gameplay but I wouldn't recommend it as an entry point in DCS mostly for the points you mention along with a few other things.

 

I'll update the original post to emphasize on the fact that it's a thread about the Jet trainer modules (which can engage in combat considering they are also used as light attack jets).

[Grigs]

I agree with you, I like the complexity of the thing as well (referrence is made here to the different on-board systems). I have never touched the A-10C yet. But I was blown by the Ka-50. And that is the reason why I cannot wait for the F/A-18C. I also perfectly understand the pure pleasure of simply flying a plane.

 

Now, what is the added value of the arriving training aircrafts? To me, unless you are an absolute fan of the plane, or unless you want to focus on formation flying, that value is quiet low. Indeed you could jump into the A-10C or the F-15C (PFM) and train all the same. And on a side note, I do not consider FC3 as an arcade game. It is simply a pity that on-board systems are not developped (yet). But it is what it is :)

 

About your friends, then why not directly start with A-10C? Or even wait for the F/A-18C?

 

I hope I am not offending anyone when I talk about training aircrafts. That is simply my point of view. I would buy a PC-7 or PC-21 because I like them. In the mean time I will stick to fighters which demonstrate the highest degree of fidelity.

 

Edit: You are only interested in trainining aircrafts, point taken ;-)

Edited January 11, 2015 by Grigs

[cichlidfan]

... (which can engage in combat considering they are also used as light attack jets).

 

Also keep in mind the the CC version of the 101 is where the combat capability lies, and that will not be released until some time after the EB.

[Aviators]

for me C-101

[Vivoune]

Also keep in mind the the CC version of the 101 is where the combat capability lies, and that will not be released until some time after the EB.

 

Indeed, there's no hurry though so it's fine. To me the value of these trainer jets is to offer for agile and rather forgivable flight experience with cockpits and systems that aren't too complicated that it needs hours upon hours of manual readings. While still keeping the level of modeling and authenticity that you would expect from any fully fledged DCS module.

 

This way learning can be done in an enjoyable way with an aircraft that is specialized to learning and training so that you can easily translate and adapt all your sensations to other modules, instead of building muscle memory on heavy mules like CAS specialized aircraft or gazelles like high speed interceptors. It's also brilliant for RP.

 

That's how I approach it at least, I don't know why but in my mind a training jet in DCS sounds absolutely perfect to learn and train. :)

[Manuel_108]

I'd buy the Hawk first, as I assume they will have their EFM out sooner. When the 101CC is going to be released together with the EFM as well, I'd purchase that too, as it has nice combat training abilities.

[Weegie]

I'm pretty new to it all, I've now got a hanger full its addictive and I'll never find the time to explore them all thoroughly.

 

Anyway to sort of answer the question I'd tell them to download the free version & get started on the Frogfoot. I'm not sure if the training missions are available with it or you need Flaming Cliffs, but these are hugely entertaining and a great place to start.

 

For me as others have already said Flaming Cliffs is a good starter pack giving combat, a range of aircraft and yet still quite challenging. The more detailed aircraft are better when you get hooked.

 

Just my sixpence worth, I suppose it doesn't answer your question directly so I apologize for that.

[Swordfish]

Just fly the Free P51 for a trainer? Or even the 25T? I'm a newbie with DCS, my 1st module was the KA50. I'm glad I went for a module that could deliver combat etc, If I want to fly I can, if I want to shoot stuff I can. I would also bear in mind that you learn what you have, I had no trouble with the KA50 in terms of trim etc as it was the only module I played, so I just picked it up. Of course I'm still learning things but that's part of the joy, im getting plenty out of it, I'm only just using AI wingmen and the datalink properly (which is helping with the dumb AI :D).

 

In the recent sales I also picked up FC3, A10C and the MIG 21.

The FC3 A/C are not easy, I agree they don't have the same depth in terms of systems etc but that means you have more time to concentrate on aspects such as weapon deployment, ingress, egress etc.

Myself I don't really see what the Hawk and similar training planes offer, at the moment they are SFM (although they will be improved :D) and they are quite expensive, you can fly the P51 all day and its good fun. After getting some flying in I can see your friends buying a new module to shoot stuff....

 

OFC I might love the Hawk etc if I tried them, but I cant see appeal atm, especially with the Sabre and the MIG 15 being just around the corner, which seem similar in capability.

[Vivoune]

Thanks for your contributions guys and welcome to DCS ^^. Like the title says though, this thread is about the upcoming Jet trainers, not all and every other DCS modules.

 

The subject isn't "which module for a beginner". Thanks

[King_Hrothgar]

In regards to your original question, there does seem to be a consensus on it. The consensus is neither trainer module is worth buying now and may never be worth purchasing unless you have an interest in the specific aircraft they present.

[Home Fries]

I can't speak to the C-101 specifically, but the Hawk has a very clean and easy cockpit layout. This makes it easy to instruct "look for this near this", and the backup gauges are also right there if the primary gauges go out. This helps develop scan habits that can be translated to more complex aircraft. Finally, the Hawk has an absolutely brilliant navigation tutorial; its brilliance is in the fact that it takes place entirely on the taxiway, allowing you to run things at your own pace while learning the often counterintuitive CDI navigation.

 

As far as systems and flight models go, you're likely fine with either. Tango has been working on flight/systems for both aircraft, so you know that the quality for both birds will be outstanding.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Home Fries

[outlawal2]

I can't speak to the C-101 specifically, but the Hawk has a very clean and easy cockpit layout. This makes it easy to instruct "look for this near this", and the backup gauges are also right there if the primary gauges go out. This helps develop scan habits that can be translated to more complex aircraft. Finally, the Hawk has an absolutely brilliant navigation tutorial; its brilliance is in the fact that it takes place entirely on the taxiway, allowing you to run things at your own pace while learning the often counterintuitive CDI navigation.

 

As far as systems and flight models go, you're likely fine with either. Tango has been working on flight/systems for both aircraft, so you know that the quality for both birds will be outstanding.

 

THIS!

 

I was going to type up almost exactly the post that Homefries posted!

I have only personally flown the HAWK so I can't speak to any of the other trainers, but I would have no issues recommending the HAWK regardless.. Easy to fy, simple cockpit and systems and just fun... You have already stated that this is a question for the TRAINERS only, so based on that criteria my vote is the HAWK... Buy the advanced one that will be completed soon and fly the SFM right now.. Also, for newbies, the SFM for a matter of a few weeks can get them up to speed and then they can transition to the AFM at that time. Bit of an easier learning curve for a newbie that will be struggling with just flying and systems and being generally overwhelmed..

 

Easier learning curve for them.

 

(And for those folks that have said things like "Why buy a sim that doesn't sim", I have heard that stuff from newbies before... Followed immediately with "Oh HOLY CRAP where do I START!?!?")

 

Lots of folks THINK they want a true study simulation but the fact is many are overwhelmed by them... Give them a slightly easier learning curve and maybe they truly DO want a study sim, but throw them out of the pan and into the fire too early and it may turn them off completely.

 

My vote: Buy the HWAK AFM and get up to speed with the SFM until the AFM is released...

 

:)

[SkateZilla]

Just get both, problem solved.

[tomcatter]

C-101 for me.

It is the aircraft that I had used for my training if I had applied to become a fighter pilot.

[SilentGun]

Hawk T1 or C-101 EB

 

C-101EB for me as it is a straight wing aircraft with low speed lift So it's about as hard to stall as an a-10 theoretically. ;)

[uboats]

c-101 for me

it seems that c-101cc will have the ability of delivering sea eagle which brings more fun than hawk.

[Vivoune]

Thanks guys, this is very informative and helpful! And yes, I'll probably end up getting both AFM versions, but not my friends, not before some time, and not before the bug bites. ;)