Lorenz

[Chizh]

Вопрос знатокам германской техники WWII.

 

Многие германские самолеты использовали для навигации систему Lorenz, самолетная часть которой включала индикатор AFN-2, который вы можете наблюдать в Fw 190 D-9 и Bf 109 K-4.

Что из себя представляла наземная часть, то есть передатчик?

Нужны фото.

[NineLine]

I think this page has pics of some Lorenz beacon antenna:

 

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122590/start/-1

 

http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-modes-other-hell.htm

 

http://www.duxford-update.info/beams/beammain.htm

 

http://www.cdvandt.org/Navigati.pdf

Edited January 26, 2015 by NineLine

[Silver_Dragon]

info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam

 

Somse long range system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonne_(navigation)

 

More info, with transmission pics (web in check)

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122590/start/-1

[Chizh]

Thanks but we need more photos of transmitter with antenas.

[NineLine]

Those pages have a couple pictures, but so far not much more than that, I will keep looking.

[NineLine]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=591665

 

[NineLine]

http://www.agder.net/la8ak/k56.htm

 

Various pictures here, might be of some interest.

[NineLine]

Actually much of this looks like radar station equipment, not sure if it was dual purpose...

[Chizh]

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=591665

 

It isn't similar on Lorentz at all.

[NineLine]

Yeah, I realize now its radar... so besides some drawings, I am not finding much as far as photos. Seems they might not have been a popular topic for photographers in the 40's...

[NineLine]

Although with this picture above this caption was included:

 

 

In the run up to the second world war, the Germans discovered that they could use the Lorenz beam technology over much larger distances. Provided that you flight high enough (over 6500 meters) and you use a large enough transmitting antenna the beam could be kept narrow enough to be useful at a distance of 500 km! In fact the antennas were rather large (30 m high and 90 meters wide) and were build on rail turntables so that the direction could be varied. This system was known as the "Knickebein" navigation system:

 

So it is possible that was a navigation tower. Unless the site is wrong which is possible too.

 

Maybe Yo-Yo could confirm with his 190 pilot, Erich, he might be able to describe navigation towers better.

[Flagrum]

 

 

(source: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122590/start/-1)

 

some theoretical background: http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/Funk/Jeagerleitverfahren%20Me%20163/LFF%20Jeagerlandefunkfeuerverfahren.htm

[Chizh]

Thanks.

But images very small.

[Maler]

Thanks.

But images very small.

Андрей у тебя БзБ не установлен? Там много наземных объектов было. Емнип там что-то такое было.

[Chizh]

Андрей у тебя БзБ не установлен? Там много наземных объектов было. Емнип там что-то такое было.

Сделай скриншоты плиз.

[vicx]

Well this interesting. Does this mean there is going to be a Battle of the Beams.

 

Searching for Battle of the Beams will probably offer up the most "enthusiast" driven material on the subject matter you are looking for ... at least in the English language.

[NineLine]

Well this interesting. Does this mean there is going to be a Battle of the Beams.

 

Searching for Battle of the Beams will probably offer up the most "enthusiast" driven material on the subject matter you are looking for ... at least in the English language.

 

I think they are looking for info to model navigation objects for the sim, that is my guess.

[Maler]

Сделай скриншоты плиз.

Я к сожалению не могу. Надо устанавливать много.

Вот что нашёл. Lorenz blind landing beacon (internal DT development)

[NineLine]

Looks like the picture above...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2302846&postcount=12

[S.E.Bulba]

Андрей у тебя БзБ не установлен? Там много наземных объектов было. Емнип там что-то такое было.

Сделай скриншоты плиз.

Если чё, это может помочь в поиске нужных ракурсов для скриншотов… :smilewink:

[Eponsky_bot]

вот еще

[airdoc]

I came upon a website that has uploaded original Luftwaffe documents (in German) and here's what I 've come up with :

 

- The Lorenz blind landing system (UKW-LFF) is consisted of a Transmitting-Directional Unit (the AnflugFuhrungSender or AS) and 2 markers placed at 300m and 3000m from the runway end (the EinflugZeichenSenders or EZS, inner is HEZ and outer is VEZ). The Directional unit is made up of a Transmitter (inside a military truck) and an antenna :

 

 

 

 

 

There are Various Powers for the Transmitters, as described in the Luftwaffe Manual No 4458, Dated June 1943, AS2, AS3 (120W) and AS4 (500W). The Antenna used is referred to in the manual as AFFA-2. I found the Schematics and a picture of this antenna in LuftWaffe manual no 4454 :

 

 

 

 

The location of the Antenna relative to the truck carrying the Electronic aparratus can be found here in the next pages :

 

 

 

Another elaborate schematic can be found in Luftwaffe manual 4455 :

 

 

 

The AS4 (500W) transmitter's pattern is shown in Luftwaffe manual No 4456 (also has schematics) :

 

 

I believe that this was the true shape of the Lorenz system, having an Antenna with 3 vertical rods and a truck 17 meters behind it bearing the electronic apparatus. The other pictures shown earlier in this thread, that are more complex, are probably radars or navigation aids for the nightfighters and not part of the Lorenz system.

 

 

Since you are modelling the entire system, you may also find useful some photos and schematics of the EZ marker antennas with their trucks (Luftwaffe manual No 4451):

 

 

 

And their force-field distribution :

 

 

 

 

Links to Luftwaffe and Lorenz company manual (much more info on the operation and schematics of these systems inside):

 

-All the manuals compiled : http://www.cdvandt.org/manuals.htm

-4451 (Lorenz+markers) :http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4451-5-Watt-UKW-Einflugzeichensend.pdf

-4458 (description of all components of the Lorenz system briefly) : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4458-UKW-Landefunkfeuer-120Wund500W.pdf

-4454 (AFFA-2 antenna + picture+schematics) : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4454-Antenne-AFFA-2.pdf

-4452 (AS2 transmitter + schematics) : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4452-Ansteuer-Sender-AS-2.pdf

-4455 : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4455-BuG.pdf

-4456 (AS4 schematics+ field characteristics) : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4456-Anflugfuehrungssender%204.pdf

-Original Document about this system by Lorenz Company (pretty much the same as the luftwaffe manuals, no photos of the antennas) : http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/pdf-hell/article-hell-Fu-Bl-1-Ex.pdf

 

 

In the cdvandt.com page there also the original manuals for most of the FuG systems, with the AFN-1 and AFN-2 instruments as well :

FuG16ZY : http://www.cdvandt.org/D-Luft-T-4069-FuG-16ZY.pdf

 

i hope this helps

Edited January 27, 2015 by airdoc

[GUMAR]

Нифига себе. Допотопный курсовой радиомаяк.

[Chizh]

There are Various Powers for the Transmitters, as described in the Luftwaffe Manual No 4458, Dated June 1943, AS2, AS3 (120W) and AS4 (500W). The Antenna used is referred to in the manual as AFFA-2. I found the Schematics and a picture of this antenna in LuftWaffe manual no 4454 :

 

Is it the same system?

 

[Shtahel]

Это техническое чудо, хотите сделать для Нормандии ?