Model Scaling and Visibilty

[[DBS]TH0R]

And I will repeat: with the dot range set at 20km (2 grids) you and anyone else is welcome to test it on our server.

 

At first I thought it did too, but after some testing when we set it up for one of our missions we found it did not.

[Wolf Rider]

then you're talking about something completely different, which is probably LoD (of which il2, iirc, ran only 3 levels)

 

 

and you've got your Dotrange at 20 (the distance at which a plane, any plane (in dot form) would become visible, where ingame default was, I think 14 and you've said yourself earlier that 8 ~10km was realistic...

 

 

~

 

I believe we should be able to spot a single engine plane at distances between 5-8km, in ideal conditions.

 

~

 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[Chlebakus]

Extremely important! Especially WW2 aircrafts needs it. These aircrafts are extremely small compared to Flaming Cliffs jets. Just because I got used to the bad visibility doesn't mean the AA fighting is satisfying experience. I am getting really tired of unability to spot Mustang which is 3 miles ahead of me isolated on clear sky.

[[DBS]TH0R]

then you're talking about something completely different, which is probably LoD (of which il2, iirc, ran only 3 levels)

 

 

and you've got your Dotrange at 20 (the distance at which a plane, any plane (in dot form) would become visible, where ingame default was, I think 14 and you've said yourself earlier that 8 ~10km was realistic...

 

No I am talking about the dot appearing / disappearing. LOD switching to the second version (if there were just 3 of them) was at a much closer distance.

 

LODs appeared for all objects at the same distance. Hence ships turning from simple dots to LODs looks so odd in that sim. For planes it wasn't noticeable and the transition was smooth.

 

No, not any plane. A 4 engined plane or in this case a bomber. Better, a formation of bombers. And since you quoted me on this, please read that I said it applies to single engined planes.

 

We tested this on Italy online map, with B-24s, B-25s and some fighters. IIRC B-24 could be seen from two grids out while a fighter just under a grid. EDIT: A grid in IL2 is 10km in width/height, for those that never tried IL2.

 

I am happy to test it again if you'd like, but that will have to wait after Easter.

Edited April 3, 2015 by T}{OR

[Wolf Rider]

no... that was the problem... all dots appeared at the same distance, then transitioned.

 

 

 

all this hoping for a "fix" is pointless though with EDGE on the horizon, as we've yet to see what that will bring

Edited April 3, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[OnlyforDCS]

no... that was the problem... all dots appeared at the same distance, then transitioned.

 

 

 

all this hoping for a "fix" is pointless though with EDGE on the horizon, as we've yet to see what that will bring

 

While I agree that we still don't know what EDGE will bring to the table, I dont think that the discussion is pointless as it gets the ball rolling and at the very least stresses how important the issue is. If it turns out to be a moot point and EDGE brings the much needed improvement to visibility then so much the better and those of us who feel the issue is important will be vindicated. If not, then we already have a nice thread and discussion on what to do about it.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Agreed.

 

no... that was the problem... all dots appeared at the same distance, then transitioned.

 

Test chalked in on my TO-DO list.

 

EDIT: Found the thread on our local forums when we were testing this, with comments about it, and I will happily reproduce the test confirming my statements from post #256.

 

 

all this hoping for a "fix" is pointless though with EDGE on the horizon, as we've yet to see what that will bring

 

While I absolutely agree that expecting a fix for the current engine is pointless, and I doubt anyone else here is. The purpose of this thread is to show how important it is for the majority (or those who voted here, for your convenience) that we have this thing done right when EDGE arrives.

Edited April 3, 2015 by T}{OR

[Wolf Rider]

 

~

 

EDIT: Found the thread on our local forums when we were testing this, with comments about it, and I will happily reproduce the test confirming my statements from post #256.

 

 

 

Not much point in just offering to post it across, is it in English?... hopefully it will generally accessible, for verification?

 

 

 

While I absolutely agree that expecting a fix for the current engine is pointless, and I doubt anyone else here is. The purpose of this thread is to show how important it is for the majority (or those who voted here, for your convenience) that we have this thing done right when EDGE arrives.

 

 

well, we won't know that until it arrives, will we (so try not to go setting yourself/ s up for a fall due to over realised expectations... and "possibly still" the same basic hardware issues and bad habits will be present - possibly

Edited April 3, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[[DBS]TH0R]

Not much point in just offering to post it across, is it in English?... hopefully it will generally accessible, for verification?

 

Now what would simple lines of text prove, and to whom? :)

 

This was just me verifying if I remembered correctly when we tested dot ranges.

[SharpeXB]

Again. If you can not understand what has been said here, simply fire up old IL2 and see for yourself.

 

In MP there was an option to dial in at what distance one would like dots to appear. Most online servers had it set on 20km. This made it possible to see a 4 engined bomber at 20 km, while fighters and other single engined fighters appeared at 8-10km.

 

The dot was just that, a visible black dot in the sky. You couldn't tell what it was until you got closer. Much closer.

 

Even ships appeared as dots - but that part was badly done in that sim. When their LODs finally appeared, they were much much larger than the dot itself.

Never played the old IL-2 but a "dot" seems just like a form of label, DCS does something similar where the label initially appears as a dot. If DCS had an option to change the label to black and remove the text, that would be about the same thing. Not bad idea.

But that's not really "scaling"

BoS is a WWII sim which features excellent spotting graphics and doesn't need "dots" or scaling.

Edited April 3, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Home Fries]

Never played the old IL-2 but a "dot" seems just like a form of label, DCS does something similar where the label initially appears as a dot. If DCS had an option to change the label to black and remove the text, that would be about the same thing. Not bad idea.

But that's not really "scaling"

It can be done (H/T Belgeode).

BoS is a WWII sim which features excellent spotting graphics and doesn't need "dots" or scaling.

I don't have BoS so I'm only speculating, but I would expect that any sim with excellent spotting graphics has some sort of compensation for 2D/FOV/resolution limitations. The trick is that you don't recognize it as compensation, and scaling is like that if properly implemented.

[[DBS]TH0R]

the setting affected all equally

 

IL2 in its latest version. Italy Online map. TOD: 12:30h | weather: clear. Graphics maxed out, 4xAA forced through Nvidia control panel.

 

Here we have three planes of different size: P-51B as a single engined plane, B-25J as a twin engined plane and B-24J as a heavy 4 engined bomber.

 

Images were not modified. I deliberately left them in their original quality to be downloaded if needed. Taken as .tga then converted to .jpeg for online use.

 

Side, top and front view:

 

 

 

 

 

For this kind of zoom to work you need to edit confing.ini (mine is set to 50000).

 

9 images, each with narrow, normal and wide FOV and all planes are visible. Slowly zooming out in front of the planes. Here we can see all three planes, yet P-51 is barely visible:

 

 

 

 

 

At this distance, you can see only two planes with B-25 being barely visible:

 

 

 

 

 

And at the final stage, only B-24 becomes visible with the other two have completely disappeared:

 

 

 

 

 

Trouble with IL21946 is, that lower you go with the resolution and graphic settings the easier it is to spot planes. My settings are maxed out with 4xAA. AA actually doesn't help in spotting.

 

 

I don't have BoS so I'm only speculating, but I would expect that any sim with excellent spotting graphics has some sort of compensation for 2D/FOV/resolution limitations. The trick is that you don't recognize it as compensation, and scaling is like that if properly implemented.

 

I do and single engined planes can be spotted at about 7-8km. Easy to tell if you have icons on. Which reminds me, I could have enabled them for the above IL21946 images lol... Oh well. :)

 

I haven't tested how far you can spot He-111 in that sim, might do that later. As far as I can tell, BOS is using some kind of clever scaling like this combined with contrast to be able to spot a target.

 

 

well, we won't know that until it arrives, will we (so try not to go setting yourself/ s up for a fall due to over realised expectations... and "possibly still" the same basic hardware issues and bad habits will be present - possibly

 

At the beginning BOS was almost as bad as DCS. Even if we do not get something like that at release, it is reasonable to expect something similar from DCS when EDGE arrives.

[Krebs20]

I have the privilege of being a flight mechanic flying around the North America.

That said I spend hours sitting jump seat bored out of my mind. I made my hobby to try and spot planes as best as I can using the TCAS. It's harder that most people think.

 

Let's start with at night. I can spot most everything in the 20-25 mile range with lights on. If dcs could make sure that you light up like a Christmas tree at night when lights are on. That would be great. I feel that stupidity should be punished.

 

Daytime is a different story. 5-6 miles at best. I would think that spotting an airliner when I know its altitude, distance, and direction would be easy. Its just not. When the airliner had contrails, (chemtrails lol) I could spot them 30miles.

We were cruising Anywhere from 32-38k feet. The TCAS was only set to show +- 2500 feet at 40miles. I spotted other planes.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Krebs20
Typing on a phone makes spelling errors

[[DBS]TH0R]

Just tested how far you can see planes in BOS. At exactly 9.5 km, be it a He-111 or a single engine plane, the plane disappears.

[SharpeXB]

Btw: I am now reading A10s over Kosovo. According to their ROE the A10 AFACs had a hard deck at 8000 ft AGL at the lowest and operated between 8-10k ft AGL (during initial stages of the operation they even had it at 15k ft AGL, which was then lowered to 10 and even later to 8 ). From this altitude they were able to spot possible target locations by seeing indications of their presence using just their eyes and confirming using binoculars. The problem in DCS currently is that this is impossible without being completely zoomed in which I don't think is "realistic" at all.

I read that book too and of course immediately thought of this game when reading that passage

 

Here's screen shots from 20,000' even with the current game engine you can tell the difference between military and civilian vehicles, mostly because of how they are positioned but in a few cases you can make out colors. There's certainly room for improvement here but you can see targets from this height

[SharpeXB]

As far as I can tell, BOS is using some kind of clever scaling like this combined with contrast to be able to spot a target.

Nice screenshots thanks for posting

Actually I confirmed with Jason, BoS does not use scaling.

[lanmancz]

I read that book too and of course immediately thought of this game when reading that passage

 

Here's screen shots from 20,000' even with the current game engine you can tell the difference between military and civilian vehicles, mostly because of how they are positioned but in a few cases you can make out colors. There's certainly room for improvement here but you can see targets from this height

 

Yeah sure but look how much zoom you need to have. According to the book he is able to see all that without binoculars. I think that's the main topic of this thread that there should be something that should compensate in some (subtle) way for the fact that using a normal fov you cannot see these kinds of details due to insufficient resolution of our screens.

Edited April 3, 2015 by lanmancz

[[DBS]TH0R]

Here's screen shots from 20,000' even with the current game engine you can tell the difference between military and civilian vehicles, mostly because of how they are positioned but in a few cases you can make out colors. There's certainly room for improvement here but you can see targets from this height

 

What zoom level was that at? IIRC civilian traffic uses very poor quality models and can be turned off completely.

 

Nice screenshots thanks for posting

Actually I confirmed with Jason, BoS does not use scaling.

 

Thanks for the info. Whatever they are doing there it is working and is much better than what we have in DCS now. Clever LOD use, contrast or something completely different, whatever keeps the plane visible on wide view is good enough for me.

[Home Fries]

Actually I confirmed with Jason, BoS does not use scaling.

I too would be curious to hear what they do to compensate, if anything.

[SharpeXB]

What zoom level was that at? IIRC civilian traffic uses very poor quality models and can be turned off completely.

Of course that's at the max zoom, all High settings and 8q AA

[xaoslaad]

Of course that's at the max zoom, all High settings and 8q AA

You keep doing it. Max zoom looking at things you know are there, versus scanning at normal zoom looking for targets are two entirely different things. Are you just trolling everyone on this thread?

[SharpeXB]

You keep doing it. Max zoom looking at things you know are there, versus scanning at normal zoom looking for targets are two entirely different things. Are you just trolling everyone on this thread?

The zoom view is your tool in the game to see objects like this. There's no other way. No "scaling" or whatever effect is going to make ground objects like that visible in the wide FOV. That's impossible. Better graphics and higher resolution can help but you also have to adjust your FOV in the game. It's normal for all flight sims.

[emg]

I too would be curious to hear what they do to compensate, if anything.

 

In RoF, there is almost always a high contrast between planes and the ground. At distance the ground gets a light gray haze effect, while planes stay almost completely black.

 

Btw Cliffs of Dover with TF mods compensate by having lots of cockpit glinting. Planes in the distance also stay completely black, while DCS planes shade to gray, so to speak.

Edited April 4, 2015 by emg

[SharpeXB]

In RoF, there is almost always a high contrast between planes and the ground. At distance the ground gets a light gray haze effect, while planes stay almost completely black.

 

Btw Cliffs of Dover with TF mods compensate by having lots of cockpit glinting. Planes in the distance also stay completely black, while DCS planes shade to gray, so to speak.

Yes, RoF and BoS are quite good that way. In reality the sky is bright and even a blue aircraft would look dark against it. And there's an atmospheric perspective effect which closer aircraft could be seen against.

 

It's good TF fixed CoD. Before that it was simply awful in this regard.

[Wolf Rider]

IL2 in its latest version. Italy Online map. TOD: 12:30h | weather: clear. Graphics maxed out, 4xAA forced through Nvidia control panel.

 

Here we have three planes of different size: P-51B as a single engined plane, B-25J as a twin engined plane and B-24J as a heavy 4 engined bomber.

 

~

 

 

 

 

I do and single engined planes can be spotted at about 7-8km. Easy to tell if you have icons on. Which reminds me, I could have enabled them for the above IL21946 images lol... Oh well. :)

 

I haven't tested how far you can spot He-111 in that sim, might do that later. As far as I can tell, BOS is using some kind of clever scaling like this combined with contrast to be able to spot a target.

 

 

~

 

 

 

 

yes, and as mentioned earlier, you definitely do seem to be talking about LoD, and too bad about the labels not being left on thing....

 

People seem to be demanding the "scaling" feature (and I say "feature" because they really don't seem interested in an overall "fix", they just seem to want a fps with wings) for way before LoD transitioning occurs, and they want it at an outrageously wide FoV

 

the video posted up (showing the gnats around the carrier) is quoted in-video as "approx. 15km away", and also appears to be hazy. They're made to look larger than they really are.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Wolf Rider