Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[Nascar]

Hello,

 

I'm thinking about ordering a vive to fly DCS. Would you recommend it ? I have a descent rig : a liquid cooled i7 5930K OC at 4.5Ghz and a geforce 1080 (just to summarise it). I get excellent fps on my 4K display with medium/ high settings. Would only notice dips at fps 40 in extreme situations such a weather over Las Vegas or a heavy multi player session.

Reading some of the posts I get the impression that DCS VR is still a slide show with the cockpit gauges and HUD difficult to read. Also vive seems to lag behind the rift (performance wise): is it because ED first starting optimizing the occulus hardware due to the DKs ? Will that change in the future?

Thanks a lot for your insight.

 

I would definitely recommend it. The Vive experience more than makes up for the faults. My biggest fps problems are around airports. Especially in multiplayer when a lot off AAA is going off. I don't believe a PC exists that can run DCS smooth all the time but you will be good for other games. I recommend The Brookhaven Experiment, Audioshield, Project Cars and The Lab. The games that utilize the controllers make it stand ahead of the Oculus in my opinion.

[DracoLlasa]

i would agree, the Vive has been wonderful, while my GPU cant really handle the not fully optimized DCS World at this point, it does to everything else pretty well. Additionally, while i originally figured the 'room scale' was a feature i would not likely use as most of my interested were in sitting based sims.. i quickly found that many of these other games were fun for me and my family..

 

Many people have very good experience with the Vive, but i think part of what you say is true in that the little VR optimization so far has been with the Rift. As i understand, only recently has ED started working with the Vive. In the last week or two did Matt put out a video on either his youtube channel or the DCS channel, showing a lot of the new optimizations, better UI with the mouse, and specifically mentioned Vive support. We likely wont see these until at least 2.5, is my guess.

 

If you want it "now", then the vive is the way to go, as the rift still has a long delay.

If you prefer to save the money, are able to wait, and know for sure you will not be doing anything other thin sitting/standing games, the rift could be a good option. the technical details of the screen and stuff are pretty much the same, how ever the lenses on the rift are a bit better in that they give a larger sweet spot, something i have noticed can occasionally become noticeable in the Vive (the smaller sweet spot), but its more of an occasional annoyance than a real "issue". The Vive really gives he most VR Options/flexibility. While hardware wise both the headsets are very similar there are some software differences to each, but to most, and in general there performance for a properly built game is very similar.

[Axion]

..The games that utilize the controllers make it stand ahead of the Oculus in my opinion.

 

Spot on!

[hansangb]

Hello,

 

I'm thinking about ordering a vive to fly DCS. Would you recommend it ? I have a descent rig : a liquid cooled i7 5930K OC at 4.5Ghz and a geforce 1080 (just to summarise it). I get excellent fps on my 4K display with medium/ high settings. Would only notice dips at fps 40 in extreme situations such a weather over Las Vegas or a heavy multi player session.

Reading some of the posts I get the impression that DCS VR is still a slide show with the cockpit gauges and HUD difficult to read. Also vive seems to lag behind the rift (performance wise): is it because ED first starting optimizing the occulus hardware due to the DKs ? Will that change in the future?

Thanks a lot for your insight.

 

 

If you primarily play DCS, than Rift is a better choice as of today. The controllers aren't used by DCS, the front camera doesn't work for looking at physical switch boxes, and Rift is better optimized (smoother) in DCS.

 

You have to take it on faith that ED will optimize Vive's experience down the road (which I think they will)

 

Room tracking doesn't really come into play for DCS so again, it comes down to what games do you want to play. There have been many threads about Rift v Vive.

 

THe controller tracking is pretty sick though! awesome!

[funkyfranky]

Well, as far as room tracking goes, you are right it's not really important for the flying part. However, I have great fun stepping out of the plane and walking around it ;-) Looks beautiful...

Here it would be great if at some later point, DCS would support some kind of teleporting with the controllers (like in many other VIve VR games). But I guess there are other more important features which need to be addressed before.

[Chivas]

If you primarily play DCS, than Rift is a better choice as of today. The controllers aren't used by DCS, the front camera doesn't work for looking at physical switch boxes, and Rift is better optimized (smoother) in DCS.

 

You have to take it on faith that ED will optimize Vive's experience down the road (which I think they will)

 

Room tracking doesn't really come into play for DCS so again, it comes down to what games do you want to play. There have been many threads about Rift v Vive.

 

THe controller tracking is pretty sick though! awesome!

 

+1. Most flight sim devs, and users with both headsets prefer the Rifts comfort, display quality, SDK pixel density slider, and ATW software. The Vive systems is still a very good choice, as people can enjoy very immersive roomscale games right now. BUT I think there will be some secret Vive buyers remorse when the Rift releases the more refined Touch controllers and all the controller game software they've been investing in for the last few years.

[dot]

osvr hdk2 looks interesting for 399$, but worried about 'dk' part of the name, that might imply very short warranty.

http://www.osvr.org/hdk2.html

[Koriel]

osvr hdk2 looks interesting for 399$, but worried about 'dk' part of the name, that might imply very short warranty.

http://www.osvr.org/hdk2.html

Saw the news as well, good news I might add.. competition will eventually lead to better specs and lower prices. Since this is DK2 who knows what the release will bring spec wise?

[Vivoune]

Although I still prefer the Vive I really liked the Rift when I tried it, so imho there's no bad choice. But Hardware aside, there are also ethical considerations a lot of us cannot ignore.

 

Oculus is doing everything it can to hurt the VR industry for short term profits and is trying to 'bribe' many developers into dropping Vive support in favor of an Oculus exclusivity. Meanwhile HTC/Steam are doing everything they can to offer and support every VR Headsets.

 

I know a lot of people don't care for that, feel that doesn't concern them or that this is just normal business. But that's something many people cannot stand.

 

Anyone curious about it should check both Oculus and/or Vive reddit boards for exemple. People should be aware of the kind of company they're supporting as everyone's choice is helping steering the nascent VR market in very different directions. If they don't care it's fine, but they should do so while being informed.

 

I'm really happy and proud of Eagle Dynamics that support both headsets, that assures me they have VR and their community as a whole best interests in mind.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Vivoune

[npole]

BUT I think there will be some secret Vive buyers remorse when the Rift releases the more refined Touch controllers and all the controller game software they've been investing in for the last few years.

 

Unfortunately the Rift controllers doesn't uses the optical tracking, but the gyros, so they are nowhere precise like the Rift ones... they can still fun for the average uses tho.

Also the full room scale provided by the lighting station of the Vive is pretty different than the Rift single cam.

A lot of people have (and are) cancelling their Rift order for the Vive because of this... but it's not that would interest a DCS player (assuming you're playing DCS only..).

Also the attempt of Rift to buy any developer out there (exclusives) to kill the competitors is the worst anti-consumer practice you can adopt today, and any company trying to do this should be ignored with their products, it's a cancer for the videogamers. I would invite anyone to not purchase any exclusive Rift title, we do not need a VR segregation.

Edited June 14, 2016 by npole

[Flim]

I've been an Oculus supporter before it was even on kickstarter.... bought DK1 in kickstarter #132, 2 dk2's and received the free CV1, but sold it for double and a half to build a new computer. Can't complain about that.... but facebook is greedy and will take away from VR to control it, so... I bought a Vive. Ya, it's heavier and more like a Dk2, but having full motion and haptic controllers is insane. My wife played Dk2 and she thought it was cool, but never asked to play it. Last night, she specifically asked, can I play the bow & arrow game in the lab? That was a first in 15 years...it's that compelling ( she said it was exercising that is fun), I agree to the workout side of it! The haptic feedback in the controllers is spot on and most people don't talk about it, but it's awesome. I have a hard time supporting the way Facebook Oculus is trying to run the show and pay off developers to make exclusives.... and their logistics sucks!!!

Edited June 14, 2016 by Flim

[Milopapa]

Anyone curious about it should check both Oculus and/or Vive reddit boards for exemple.

 

I was wondering whether to post about that here, glad you did it.

It's a very sad state of affairs indeed. I don't know who makes these calls at Oculus (Facebook?) but they seriously underestimate the pcmasterrace fury and backlash their moves are generating.

 

Anyway, back on topic! :)

 

I demoed the Vive to a bunch of friends last weekend and they were completely blown away by DCS.

Out of 3, one was hit by motion sickness (pretty sensitive to it IRL too), one felt it but was generally okay (stayed in there for as long as he could and stated he will buy one) and one of them was unaffected. They tried flying the P-51 and replays in the Huey, btw.

 

As a sidenote, they also loved roomscale and all of them said this is impossible to judge without experiencing it first.

[Chivas]

Unfortunately the Rift controllers doesn't uses the optical tracking, but the gyros, so they are nowhere precise like the Rift ones... they can still fun for the average uses tho.

Also the full room scale provided by the lighting station of the Vive is pretty different than the Rift single cam.

A lot of people have (and are) cancelling their Rift order for the Vive because of this... but it's not that would interest a DCS player (assuming you're playing DCS only..).

Also the attempt of Rift to buy any developer out there (exclusives) to kill the competitors is the worst anti-consumer practice you can adopt today, and any company trying to do this should be ignored with their products, it's a cancer for the videogamers. I would invite anyone to not purchase any exclusive Rift title, we do not need a VR segregation.

 

 

The Rift controllers will use TWO external camera trackers, and most users see little difference in the Tracking between the Vive lasers, and Rift optical trackers.

 

From the beginning Oculus understood that VR hardware was worthless without the necessary VR software. Oculus was investing millions of dollars in software development while Vive was spending zero until very recently. Not to mention that most of the software Oculus financed will work with Vive headsets aswell. It was so very easy for Vive to suggest that all content should run on all VR headsets when they weren't investing anything into VR software for quite sometime. Condemning Oculus for having a couple of exclusive titles for a short while is very short sited. One minute the Facebook haters say that their VR content is full of spyware, and then get p*ssed when they can't access some of it.

[empeck]

Oculus was investing millions of dollars in software development while Vive was spending zero until very recently.

 

Nope. Don't spread false information. Both Valve and HTC funded software from the beginning, but they are not locking that software behind walled garden.

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/valves-chet-faliszek-on-htc-vive-pre-content-showcase-surprises-and-ninja-cats/

 

We want VR to succeed, that’s super important for us. But more important than that is, that we want to make sure that developers don’t get burned. We’re trying to do everything we can for them. We’re [Valve] funding development as well, I know HTC is as well. You couldn’t guess who we are as we don’t think they should be exclusive to our hardware.

[Vivoune]

The Rift controllers will use TWO external camera trackers, and most users see little difference in the Tracking between the Vive lasers, and Rift optical trackers.

 

From the beginning Oculus understood that VR hardware was worthless without the necessary VR software. Oculus was investing millions of dollars in software development while Vive was spending zero until very recently. Not to mention that most of the software Oculus financed will work with Vive headsets aswell. It was so very easy for Vive to suggest that all content should run on all VR headsets when they weren't investing anything into VR software for quite sometime. Condemning Oculus for having a couple of exclusive titles for a short while is very short sited. One minute the Facebook haters say that their VR content is full of spyware, and then get p*ssed when they can't access some of it.

 

I would suggest you get up to date with the facts you seem to base your opinion on. Check Oculus or Vive subreddits, Steam or Oculus forums, various VR game forums or specialized press articles. Well, check the Internet. :thumbup:

[npole]

The Rift controllers will use TWO external camera trackers, and most users see little difference in the Tracking between the Vive lasers, and Rift optical trackers.

 

They are designed to be placed in front, look at the E3 setups: with all those games demoed, you will lose the tracking if you try to turn 180° ... and in fact all those games are "facing front" experiences. With the rift you can move in a whole room, no matter of your position.

 

From the beginning Oculus understood that VR hardware was worthless without the necessary VR software. Oculus was investing millions of dollars in software development while Vive was spending zero until very recently. Not to mention that most of the software Oculus financed will work with Vive headsets aswell. It was so very easy for Vive to suggest that all content should run on all VR headsets when they weren't investing anything into VR software for quite sometime. Condemning Oculus for having a couple of exclusive titles for a short while is very short sited. One minute the Facebook haters say that their VR content is full of spyware, and then get p*ssed when they can't access some of it.

 

Oculus come out with a inferior product (even inferior than the OSVR), and they started to use the money to buy the developers out there (ALL of them have been reached by Oculus, proposing to remove the VIVE support to offer a timed exclusive for the Rift). How do you call this?

 

They have also closed their platform (Oculus Home) to the other HMD's, so if you own a VIVE or a OSVR you cannot access to the games purchased there. Imagine Valve doing the same: how you would react if they will make the Rift not working with all the Steam titles? Will you be happy? I guess not...

 

So yes, Oculus, and FB in general is the cancer of the VR, and I hope they will fail.. since we don't need another console war and a bunch of exclusives, it will only bad for all of us.. risking to be forced to purchase TWO headsets (that are expensive as hell..) to play all the available games.

[DracoLlasa]

it might be best to keep the conversation focused on the hardware, specifically the Vive (in this thread) and its relation to DCS, and not get into the politics behind the Rift or vive as i really dont want to see this thread get locked, its also not very productive

[npole]

it might be best to keep the conversation focused on the hardware, specifically the Vive (in this thread) and its relation to DCS, and not get into the politics behind the Rift or vive as i really dont want to see this thread get locked, its also not very productive

 

I would normally agree, but considering what's happening and the damage FB is doing to this new users experience, it's worth it IMO.

Remaining in topic of course, because after all we're talking about VR, not about potatoes.

This is not "politic" btw, this is a serious concrete issue that should be handled today by using any channel in our power, or it will be too late.

[Vivoune]

it might be best to keep the conversation focused on the hardware, specifically the Vive (in this thread) and its relation to DCS, and not get into the politics behind the Rift or vive as i really dont want to see this thread get locked, its also not very productive

 

The way a company runs and handle its product and userbase is as important as the product itself, especially considering that's what is defining the VR foundations of tomorrow's VR landscape we'll all be evolving in.

 

I don't believe exchanging opinions on the matter is counter-productive or off topic, many people do take these things into consideration when making a VR HMD choice and I know a few people personally that genuinely think the Rift is the best unit for DCS yet they go for the Vive because of the way Oculus are handling things.

 

That's, for some people, just as important as pixel density or a bigger FOV. :joystick:

[Flim]

Very well said!

 

The way a company runs and handle its product and userbase is as important as the product itself, especially considering that's what is defining the VR foundations of tomorrow's VR landscape we'll all be evolving in.

 

I don't believe exchanging opinions on the matter is counter-productive or off topic, many people do take these things into consideration when making a VR HMD choice and I know a few people personally that genuinely think the Rift is the best unit for DCS yet they go for the Vive because of the way Oculus are handling things.

 

That's, for some people, just as important as pixel density or a bigger FOV. :joystick:

[Chivas]

I would suggest you get up to date with the facts you seem to base your opinion on. Check Oculus or Vive subreddits, Steam or Oculus forums, various VR game forums or specialized press articles. Well, check the Internet. :thumbup:

 

You've got to be kidding. The last thing most forum users want to understand is facts, especially when it doesn't suit their agenda. Most of the forums are dominated by the "Sky is Falling" types, who think Oculus having a few exclusives is going to kill Oculus, and VR in general.

[Vivoune]

You've got to be kidding. The last thing most forum users want to understand is facts, especially when it doesn't suit their agenda. Most of the forums are dominated by the "Sky is Falling" types, who think Oculus having a few exclusives is going to kill Oculus, and VR in general.

 

Having a couple of exclusive titles doesn't even begin to describe the root of the problem. Much more is happening that gets Oculus/Facebook stuck in a public opinion's tantrum spirale.

 

If you can't be bothered to inform yourself a little about the whole picture of what's happening in VR there's not much point into debating it really.

[funkyfranky]

And now for something completely different...

 

Since today I experience the problem that SteamVR launches _automatically_ when I start DCS. Happens in both 1.5 and 2.0. I'm using SteamVR beta.

 

Usually I have it off since it is known to increase stutters and therefore I would prefer it that way. However when I close SteamVR, DCS closes too.

 

Anyone else seeing this and maybe even has a solution?

[AstroEma]

Happened to me last night as well.

 

Not sure why, but it has something to do with the latest beta.

[Chivas]

Having a couple of exclusive titles doesn't even begin to describe the root of the problem. Much more is happening that gets Oculus/Facebook stuck in a public opinion's tantrum spirale.

 

If you can't be bothered to inform yourself a little about the whole picture of what's happening in VR there's not much point into debating it really.

 

Again you don't know what your talking about. Where does it suggest I don't read the forums. Just because someone doesn't join the Lemming cliff jumpers, doesn't mean I don't get a kick out of watching them jump. Most are hypocrites anyway, taking the moral highground, while stealing all software they can get their hands on, then wondering where all the flight sim developers went.

 

I've been following VR closely since the Oculus kickstarter days. Everyone loved Oculus, some hated Steam, until Facebook acquired the firm. Then the Facebook haters lost their minds, suggesting Facebook would dumb down the headset for only social experiences, and any other nonsense they could think of. The exact opposite happened, Facebook monies allow Oculus too acquire some of the brightest people, build custom VR parts, and further fund VR software developers. Personally I could care less about Facebook, don't use it, and probably never will.

 

I also don't hate Vive. I think their system is great, but just have the opinion that the Rift is more refined, especially for flight sims. That has been born out by most users, and flight sim devs who have experience with both headsets. When the Touch controllers come out, they also look to be more refined than the Vive wands. They should be considering the time and monies Oculus has available for R&D etc etc. Unfortunately Fanboyism won't let people look at the big picture, and just ignore facts that don't their argument, and they hitch their wagon to any nonsense in the forums, that suits their position. I usually only post in support of Oculus when a Vive fanboy can't sing the praises of his Vive headset without adding ill informed bullsh*t about the Rift.

 

People continue to suggest that the Rift won't be able to do roomscale VR, which is total nonsense. Two Rift trackers can be placed anywhere the user wants, and will have the exact same exclusion problems as the Vive. This has been proven, and posted by many users in the forums you suggest that I don't read.

 

Valve originally had no intention of developing a consumer version of their VR hardware projects, and had no problem working with Oculus while they were doing R&D on their consumer version. Up till then Valve spent very little monies on VR software until Vive came into the picture, and they decided to build their own hardware unit. Oculus had been investing in VR software for almost two years before that happened, as they knew there was no point in investing in hardware if there was not enough good VR content.

 

Oculus also knew they had to have some control over the quality of the VR software, as bad VR software would kill VR hardware no matter how good the hardware is. Hence Oculus Home, where they could control the quality, and recoup some of the huge investments they've been making in VR hardware/software over the last few years. Oculus stated from the beginning they were going to sell their hardware near cost, and planned to make their profit on the software side. Oculus will have no problem competing with anyone on the hardware side, but yes there will be some exclusives, while Oculus establishes its position in the market to compete with the Steam store. That's the reality, and no amount of hand wringing, or forum whinging will change that.

 

I have no allegiance to AMD or Nvidia, but just buy the one that best suits my needs, the same goes for Vive, and Oculus. There is no question that currently the Rift is better for my needs in flight sims, and if I want to venture into roomscale later, I have little doubt that the Rift controllers will easily compete with the Vive wands. If that changes I will be the first to buy Vive, or some other competitor. I could care less fanboy allegiances.