Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[Fopeyducker]

I'd rather have a vr glove than a controller, so I could virtually press the buttons in the cockpit.

Well done ED for looking into it.

[Brisse]

Wait for one more year and get Star VR with 210° FOV. That will be ultimate imersion, FOV like in real life no black part and tunnel vision.

 

I am very sceptical towards StarVR. They have to make some compromises to achieve such amazing specs as 210° FOV. It will be much larger and heavier than Rift/Vive. It will need much higher resolution displays to achieve even similar pixel density to Rift/Vive. Now remember, that even with the Rift and Vive you will have to turn DCS graphics options to their lowest setting. Even then you need a really fast PC. Imagine if the StarVR is to have the same pixel density as Rift/Vive. That means it will need twice the resolution. With Rift/Vive you will need a PC that can achieve a pixel fill rate that is approximately four times that of gaming on a 1080p monitor. The StarVR would require eight times as much! That is just no feasible with today's PC hardware. It will be a loooong time until we get there.

[Chivas]

Both will have great content since Vive has Steam and $100 difference is not a big deal either way. We will likely be able to choose the best quality gear with no worries at all.

 

HTC has been getting its screens from Samsung. Recently dumped Samsung for AUO. Major customers of AUO are Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Dell, Apple, Asus, Acer, HP, Philips.

 

Vive has Steam, but very little of the Steam content has VR implementation. The Oculus VR store is all VR content, that they have been funding and supporting for two years longer than HTC/Valve. There is no way Steam will catch up in six months. Eventually maybe, so in the meantime they will need a killer app to command the larger market share. If Vive doesn't have the killer app "Most" people will preorder the less costly unit with more content. Better HMD specs will also be a major factor, but I don't see the Vive unit being significantly better than the Rift. Infact its more likely to be the other way around, considering Oculus's considerable resource advantage.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Chivas

[PiedDroit]

I hope there won't be too much of "separation of content", that soon there will be a unified API for all VR units.

This reminds me of the early days of audio and graphic cards, each game had to ship with integrated driver for each different board type :music_whistling:

[Chivas]

Both will have great content since Vive has Steam and $100 difference is not a big deal either way. We will likely be able to choose the best quality gear with no worries at all.

 

HTC has been getting its screens from Samsung. Recently dumped Samsung for AUO. Major customers of AUO are Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Dell, Apple, Asus, Acer, HP, Philips.

 

Samsung has a larger display market share than AUO, and makes better displays than AUO. There are reports that Samsung has been putting the poorer quality AUO displays in some of their Samsung monitors/TV's, but that should have nothing to do with the high quality custom VR displays Samsung is currently making. My point is, Oculus a partner of Samsung should have access to these VR featured displays, at a reasonable pricepoint.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Chivas

[Chivas]

Of the two "current" input prototypes, I prefer the dexterity of the Touch inputs too the Vive wands. Currently Vive simulates something in your hand while the Touch simulates your hand, with should translate better for cockpit use. Final products could change.

 

StarVR looks very good, but current system hardware would have a very difficult time driving that many pixels especially at high HZ. I don't see that happening for a year or two. Once hardware/software is capable of driving dual displays with than many pixels, StarVR will probably have stiff competition from later consumer versions to the Vive and Oculus's at those high FOV's.

[S3NTRY11]

This definitely the future for VR sims. Controllers are just a temporary solution for sims.

Couldn't agree more. Gloves are definitely the way to go. In the mean time, I'll take whatever works.

 

Re StarVR: the irony there is that - at least for flight sims - I've found the limited FOV to be a good facsimile of wearing a helmet!

I'm not saying that extra FOV in general isn't a great thing though... If you have the horsepower.

[S3NTRY11]

List of official "compatible titles" here

"games that work with the HTC Vive or have planned Vive support", more to come in December announcement.

 

Most likely the screens of both units will of be very similar quality on initial release, but, Valves developer, Chet Faliszek, has already mentioned 4k at the 2015 EGX, so it is at least being considered, and my likely guess it is at both camps. But the hardware to drive 4K, maybe $7K (4 Titans SLI'ed?).

 

So after Valve/Oculus takes our cold hard cash for the first gen, they"ll get to do it again in a couple of years....:huh:

 

For some peoples (myself included) latency is a really, really big thing :Flush:, and after evaluating both prototypes, HTC Vive, is personally my only choice for now (see the previous icon for an explanation :(:noexpression:). I'm sure both camps will have improvements for their consumer releases, they will simply have too. And your hardware will have a huge impact on this issue, so keep this in mind, consider the Vive/OR unit as only one part of a complete system.

 

So as suggested here, if your not in the position to purchase both units, I'd strongly advise not to order anything until both consumer versions are released, and you can thoroughly test drive them both, then make your finial decision on what fits you. If you have any susceptibility to motion sickness at all, it's even more important that you do so, as the option to pre-order is quickly approaching, the temptations gonna be there.

 

We have to remember though, that having an initially higher res than current hardware can push is pretty forward thinking (if that's what they are thinking); your pc may not be able to push to native res right now, but having those pixels available will extend the life of the hardware. And, in the interim, the current hardware can just scale the lower res to screen, for reduced SDE.

 

The iterative nature of VR is inescapable - first gen is never going to be the ultimate solution, just as the same can be said for gaming hardware in general. It's the nature of the beast, but especially for nascent tech, in all it's guises.

 

I agree with what you say about waiting to see reviews of the release hardware before making a commitment, but based on all the anecdotal evidence (and my lack of patience), I'm queueing for a Vive, for better or worse :D

 

Hell, I live in Australia, so pre-ordering probably won't ever be available for the Vive, in any case. Sigh.

[S3NTRY11]

Samsung has a larger display market share than AUO, and makes better displays than AUO. There are reports that Samsung has been putting the poorer quality AUO displays in some of their Samsung monitors/TV's, but that should have nothing to do with the high quality custom VR displays Samsung is currently making. My point is, Oculus a partner of Samsung should have access to these VR featured displays, at a reasonable pricepoint.

 

I hope you're getting payment from Oculus at this point, Chivas.

[vicx]

Hell, I live in Australia, so pre-ordering probably won't ever be available for the Vive

 

I don't use shipito that often ... but for the Vive release I'll probably use it again.

[Chivas]

I hope you're getting payment from Oculus at this point, Chivas.

 

I don't care which development makes the best VR HMD, I just don't buy the hype that Vive is better than the Rift yet. Especially in regards to combat flight sims. Its the usual forum hype that some poster can't suggest how good one unit is without posting some mis-information about the other product, to help sell their argument.

 

Even most of the reviews compare the Vive prototype against earlier Rift prototypes which is misleading. Those that compared the latest prototypes could actually see little difference between the headset, and latencies. I'm suggesting that people should wait and see the final consumer versions, and not write-off the development that has a huge advantage in tech/financial resources, and wants to sell you their units near cost. Its folly to choose one over the other at this point. I'm not suggesting that Vive can't pull it off, but anyone with a modicum of common sense, would wait and see.

[S3NTRY11]

Its the usual forum hype that some poster can't suggest how good one unit is without posting some mis-information about the other product, to help sell their argument.

 

Even most of the reviews compare the Vive prototype against earlier Rift prototypes which is misleading. Those that compared the latest prototypes could actually see little difference between the headset, and latencies.

 

You could say that 6, maybe even 3 months ago, but by this point, the comparisons have been between the Vive (Development edition) and the Rift (near commercial edition) for some time now.

 

You keep going on about misinformation, but you never source it. And who are these posters spreading misinformation? I'm calling your blustering bluff.

 

The most ironical part of that is your denial of mass anecdotal evidence that says what you clearly don't want to hear.

 

And in spite of your 10% weighting of "I'm just waiting for the best", every time, you counter it with 90% weight of "this is why this product is better". It's painful and tedious. Stop it.

 

Yes, at this stage it's anyone's game. But don't be so damn disingenuous by saying you're waiting to see which is best, when all you go on about is how much greater one product is over the other.

 

For what it's worth, I think that the Rift might well be the better product for simmers, but mainly due to the more probable bang-for-buck in the seated experience, but it's certainly not the better tech, in MY opinion.

[Chivas]

You could say that 6, maybe even 3 months ago, but by this point, the comparisons have been between the Vive (Development edition) and the Rift (near commercial edition) for some time now.

 

You keep going on about misinformation, but you never source it. And who are these posters spreading misinformation? I'm calling your blustering bluff.

 

The most ironical part of that is your denial of mass anecdotal evidence that says what you clearly don't want to hear.

 

And in spite of your 10% weighting of "I'm just waiting for the best", every time, you counter it with 90% weight of "this is why this product is better". It's painful and tedious. Stop it.

 

Yes, at this stage it's anyone's game. But don't be so damn disingenuous by saying you're waiting to see which is best, when all you go on about is how much greater one product is over the other.

 

For what it's worth, I think that the Rift might well be the better product for simmers, but mainly due to the more probable bang-for-buck in the seated experience, but it's certainly not the better tech, in MY opinion.

 

Maybe you could post this mass of anecdotal evidence that suggests the latest Vive prototypes are better than the latest Rift prototypes. The vast majority of these reviews say that they've tried the DK2, and find the Vive better, mostly because they could move around. Those that tried the latest Rift prototype said they seen little difference in the quality of the headsets, or latencies in the tracking methods. Its possible that the latencies could be lower with the Vive tracking, but if nobody can see the difference who cares.

 

Most people loved the Rift until it was bought out by Facebook. The usual refrain was that Facebook would dumb down the Rift into a social media headset . It didn't happen, Facebook poured even more money into the Rifts development, and content.

 

Then Vive annouced a very good VR headset prototype with tracking inputs. The same people jumped on that bandwagon saying it was the Facebook killer. I guess it didn't occur to them that Oculus would make improvements to their own prototypes, and have far more money, resouces, and R&D to make it happen than their competition.

 

The Rift is just a sitting experience? A review from last June.

Room Scale Possible: Testing the standing tracking volume on the Oculus Rift

http://uploadvr.com/room-scale-possible-testing-the-standing-tracking-volume-on-the-oculus-rift/

 

Again I don't care which one ends up developing the better headset/input, and will wait for the preorder specs/content/price to be annouced before making my final decision.

 

I hate confusing the issue with facts, and know you find it painful and tedious, but just stick your head back in the sand, and it won't bother you as much.

 

I am surprised that Oculus hasn't gone the Vive route of a travelling demo display. They must be very confident, their preorder package will be obviouly superior in price/content/specs, or they can't compete at the present time.

[Chivas]

Valve has confirmed that the upcoming kit will feature a built-in microphone.

 

Yes, and they've also said the Vive will have built-in headphones. Which I think is a great idea, as it should make it much easier for VR content developers to know exactly how to best tweak their audio software.

:)

[S3NTRY11]

I don't use shipito that often ... but for the Vive release I'll probably use it again.

 

I never have, but I think I'm going to have to investigate it.

You've had good experiences so far?

[S3NTRY11]

I disagree.Specially the "certainly" part. :P

 

touché :D

[S3NTRY11]

Maybe you could post this mass of anecdotal evidence that suggests the latest Vive prototypes are better than the latest Rift prototypes.

 

I'll give you one reference for 4 reasons:

1) If you can't be bothered providing sources for this "misinformation" you speak of every second post, why should I be bothered to use Google beyond 5 seconds-worth.

2)The source I'm providing is about as solid as you can get, anecdotally.

3)The article is so old, if it doesn't illustrate how many comparisons there would be out there by now, that aren't, as you say, "DK2 vs Vive", there's no hope convincing you of anything much.

4)If the source isn't good enough for you, then, see the tail of point 3, basically.

 

Tested

 

The vast majority of these reviews say that they've tried the DK2, and find the Vive better, mostly because they could move around. Those that tried the latest Rift prototype said they seen little difference in the quality of the headsets, or latencies in the tracking methods. Its possible that the latencies could be lower with the Vive tracking, but if nobody can see the difference who cares.

 

I hope you read enough of the article to get to the point where you realise that you are the one spreading misinformation.

Most people loved the Rift until it was bought out by Facebook. The usual refrain was that Facebook would dumb down the Rift into a social media headset . It didn't happen, Facebook poured even more money into the Rifts development, and content.

 

Then Vive annouced a very good VR headset prototype with tracking inputs. The same people jumped on that bandwagon saying it was the Facebook killer. I guess it didn't occur to them that Oculus would make improvements to their own prototypes, and have far more money, resouces, and R&D to make it happen than their competition.

See my previous response to you.

 

The Rift is just a sitting experience?

Who said it was just a seated experience?

 

I hate confusing the issue with facts, and know you find it painful and tedious, but just stick your head back in the sand, and it won't bother you as much.

 

I don't think the point you are trying to make is the point you are actually making.

[vicx]

You've had good experiences so far?

 

Yep small and big stuff too. They are great for Amazon and others for products that only deliver to US addreses. It isn't a mystery delivery service .. they show you pictures of the box when they get it and stuff like that. It is a very professional and large business.

 

Last used them two years ago. Current rules regarding tax I am not sure. It used to be for a package is under $1000 value no tax required. Hopefully Vive will be under $1000AU.

[S3NTRY11]

Yep small and big stuff too. They are great for Amazon and others for products that only deliver to US addreses. It isn't a mystery delivery service .. they show you pictures of the box when they get it and stuff like that. It is a very professional and large business.

 

Last used them two years ago. Current rules regarding tax I am not sure. It used to be for a package is under $1000 value no tax required. Hopefully Vive will be under $1000AU.

Sweet. Thanks for the heads-up.

Fingers are firmly crossed it's not over 1k, but let's be honest, importing will still likely be cheaper than retail+AustraliaTax.

[Chivas]

I'll give you one reference for 4 reasons:

1) If you can't be bothered providing sources for this "misinformation" you speak of every second post, why should I be bothered to use Google beyond 5 seconds-worth.

2)The source I'm providing is about as solid as you can get, anecdotally.

3)The article is so old, if it doesn't illustrate how many comparisons there would be out there by now, that aren't, as you say, "DK2 vs Vive", there's no hope convincing you of anything much.

4)If the source isn't good enough for you, then, see the tail of point 3, basically.

 

Tested

 

 

 

I hope you read enough of the article to get to the point where you realise that you are the one spreading misinformation.

 

See my previous response to you.

 

 

Who said it was just a seated experience?

 

 

 

I don't think the point you are trying to make is the point you are actually making.

 

 

Again just another old review comparing Rift without Touch, and Vive with Wands. Saying the Vive is 15x15 and the Rift 3x3, which is now wrong.

Palmer has stated that the Vive tracking is very good and Oculus has looked at "all" tracking options, and prefer their camera option. I would assume it may make it easier to track all body parts.

[Chivas]

There are also rumors lately that Vive may also have a killer app, that some think is HL3. I have no idea, nor care what HL3 is, but a popular game will go along way in helping Vive sell more product to people who might have waited for the cheaper Rift.

[S3NTRY11]

Again just another old review

 

That was the point.

Rift without Touch

Rift doesn't come with Touch

Saying the Vive is 15x15 and the Rift 3x3, which is now wrong.

Old Review.

And if constellation tech comes close to 15x15 I'll eat my smartphone.

And if the overall price (including the extra camera at extra cost - not to mention Touch), still doesn't come close to the cost of the Vive, I'll eat my smartphone.

Palmer has stated that the Vive tracking is very good and Oculus has looked at "all" tracking options, and prefer their camera option.

"We made the wrong decision with our technology - theirs is better" - said no successful company ever

Edited November 18, 2015 by S3NTRY11
The second biggest sigh this year.

[Chivas]

That was the point.

 

Rift doesn't come with Touch

 

Old Review.

And if constellation tech comes close to 15x15 I'll eat my smartphone.

And if the overall price (including the extra camera at extra cost - not to mention Touch), still doesn't come close to the cost of the Vive, I'll eat my smartphone.

 

"We made the wrong decision with our technology - theirs is better" - said no successful company ever

 

 

Be prepared to eat your smartphone.

 

The first prototype Constellation tacking was doing 12x12 months ago.

 

Rift / Touch and two camera trackers will in all likelihood be cheaper than the Vive system.

 

1. Camera trackers are much cheaper to produce than the Laser trackers.

 

2. Samsung should be able to secure custom displays at a much cheaper pricepoint considering their partnership with a major display maker Samsung.

 

3. And the most important point is Oculus suggesting they will sell their hardware near cost. Considering HTC current financial problems, its likely they'd like to secure are larger profit margin.

 

Its also quite likely people will be able to preorder the Touch controllers at the same time as the headset.

 

Its now unlikely that many people will receive the Vive this year, with the majority having to wait until next year. With the Rift already coming of the assembly lines, the Vive's first to market advantage could be shrinking rapidly.

 

Its also likely that the Vive and Rift will be open for preorders at the same time this year. Most smart VR enthusiasts will take into account price, content, specs, and release time frame before deciding which unit to buy.

[Chivas]

Steam has 125 million active users. Huge content advantage for Vive.

 

SteamVR API for Steam content like Half Life 3, DCS or OpenVR API for non Steam content. It won't take long for Vive to have have a ton of content. Sims included.

 

Add to that recent contracts with Lionsgate Studios and HBO, its looking very good for Vive.

 

Steam does have a lot of content in their Store, little of it exclusive to, or developed by Steam, and all of it is 2D, and unlikely to be 3D anytime soon.

 

Actually Oculus has the current advantage in VR content since they have been funding and developing VR content for a couple of years longer.

 

Oculus now has their own game store, and ALL of it is VR.

 

So no Vive currently doesn't have a huge advantage in VR software content, and unlikely to have it any time soon, because of the tens of thousands software developers currently working on VR content for the Rift. Much of that content could eventually be cross platform, but that doesn't translate to any kind of Steam advantage.

 

The amount of content available for each platform when preorders start will probably fall in Oculus's favor. Vive may need to have a killer app to save the day in that category.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Chivas

[Chivas]

Wow, I guess Oculus is leading in everything and is unstoppable. Every advantage posted here for Vive is swiftly refuted by your opinions. Thanks for your unbiased input and setting everyone straight.

 

 

So your suggesting that I'm bias and your not. Almost every post you make is in favor of the Vive unit for one reason or another. Some I agree with some I don't. If I don't agree, I'll post a reason for it. If you understood my posts at all you'd know I have no idea which one will end up being the better product, but just like you I post reasons why one might be better than the other. If you can't handle a counter argument, maybe you shouldn't post at all.

 

Of course Vive could win the day, with a good combination of price point, content, specs, etc, but once Vive was announced people seem to assume they've already won, and Oculus hasn't made any improvements to their product over the last eight months. Both teams will delivered improved specs over their last prototype. We simply don't know yet which developer will have the best combination of specs, content, price, and release date to suit our needs.

 

 

You say that Vive has the advantage in content, and I just gave some valid reasons why I think they don't.

 

Others think that Vive won't be anymore expensive than the Rift, I've just gave some valid reasons why the Rift might be cheaper.

 

I really hope that Vive can pull it off, so I can buy a VR headset as soon as possible. I just don't see Vive being the clear winner, YET.