F-14 RWR Question

[Dudikoff]

Great post with lots of helpful info. Seems crazy to me that a primary A-A fighter wouldn't be able to detect airborne radars. Plus, given the tech of these RWRs, it would probably take w deliberate engineering effort to exclude airborne radar info.

 

While I don't know the exact AN/ALR-45 capabilities, the context of the time could also be a factor to consider. The F-14 was a fleet interceptor intended to operate together with the E-2 AWACS planes to whom they were datalinked to. Between those and their powerful radars, it's not like it would get easily jumped. Also, the Soviet side only started introducing BVR fighters like the MiG-23M and MiG-25 which were not immediately exported. Then there are always budget concerns delaying various upgrades. E.g. the AN/ALR-67 was available since the beginning of 80's IIRC, but it was deployed on Tomcats a decade later.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Dudikoff

[Basher54321]

Vector strobe displays were not that specific - AFAIK for example you had just a bearing line from the centre of the scope where the length of the line to the rings would indicate signal strength.

 

For some reason the actual manuals for these are harder to come by than more modern types - but somebody has them.

 

Some of the F-4s had a panel as well like this attachment - where the AAA / AI is indication of airborne type and AAA using similar frequencies. The F-14A as part of ALR-45/50 around their Nam deployment had a similar block of lights added to the front right canopy frame you should find.

[Dudikoff]

That reminds me of the F-14 Fleet Defender where the RIO had the indicator lights for IFF, SAM, AAA, CW, AI.

 

 

Looking at the F-14D manual, the lights are still there, but missing the CW and adding the EW light.

 

The preliminary F-14A manual from 1972 for example, shows only SAM and IFF lights.

 

Anybody has some later F-14A manual?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Dudikoff

[BlackLion213]

Anybody has some later F-14A manual?

 

:music_whistling:OK, I feel like an idiot, forgot that I had the F-14A and F-14D manuals.

 

The ECM portion is redacted and lots of "refer to NAVAIR..."

 

That said, it confirms that the ALR-45 does display A-A threats with an alpha numeric display system to ID some of the threats, from the analog signal processor. The 3 lights on the right windscreen, below the right engine stall warning light, has specific warning lights for SAMS and CW (continuous wave signifying missile launch). The third symbol for the other panel was redacted.

 

It seems that the F-14 can ID some A-A radars and has some symbology to aid the ID, courtesy of it's rudimentary signal processor. There is also a volume control knob next to the sidewinder volume knob, contradicting something that was posted on a google group. Hard to tell what info is accurate with topics like these.

 

But, at least we know know that the manual says...with a small delay. ;)

 

-Nick

[CheckGear]

The F-14 was a fleet interceptor intended to operate together with the E-2 AWACS planes. Between those and their powerful radars, it's not like it would get easily jumped.

 

This is a very crucial point of consideration. The F-14 operating in conjunction with the E-2 also meant that Tomcats didn't operate their own radars until an engagement was more likely or if they were within striking distance of bogies. So yeah, the idea that our fighters would get ambushed was not considered a likely scenario, since there was always someone providing "overwatch."

[98abaile]

DCS: E-2 when?

[Woogey]

DCS: E-2 when?

 

The E-2 has been in game for a long time, along with the E-3.

[Dudikoff]

That said, it confirms that the ALR-45 does display A-A threats with an alpha numeric display system to ID some of the threats, from the analog signal processor. The 3 lights on the right windscreen, below the right engine stall warning light, has specific warning lights for SAMS and CW (continuous wave signifying missile launch). The third symbol for the other panel was redacted.

 

It seems that the F-14 can ID some A-A radars and has some symbology to aid the ID, courtesy of it's rudimentary signal processor.

 

So, it does show the A-A threats, just doesn't have a separate warning light for them? Interesting, especially since the AN/APR-36 image on the previous page shows a separate AI light and it seems both the USAF AN/APR-36 and USN's AN/APR-45 were developed from the same AN/APR-25. So, either the capabilities were different, or again, the F-14 was not seen as being under threat from the opposing aircraft at the time.

 

Oh, a small nitpick, but AFAIK CW doesn't indicate a missile launch, but a CW illumination for the SARH missile guidance and this could be both A2A and SAM, I guess. This is started before the missile is launched to establish a SARH seeker lock on necessary for the launch. The missile doesn't have to be launched at all.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Dudikoff

[captain_dalan]

Good find guys. I do hope all this gets simulated. This would make flying the F-14A quite the unique experience for someone that only flew "digital" fighters in sims before.

 

Do the manuals say anything about how the system is calibrated? Can the ground crews do it themselves? Or does it require "factory" intervention?

[Paradox]

The E-2 has been in game for a long time, along with the E-3.

 

Yeah we find ourselves in another of these situations where the limitations of DCS will limit gameplay somewhat. It was the same with GCI for the MiG-21. Technically you can do it but it's pretty bad.

 

I think ED want to do something about it as part of an ATC update, I hope we get that at some point, it would add so much.

[Toybasher]

What does the AI light stand for? I know it's for locks from other planes, but what does it actually say? Aerial Interceptor I think but I might be wrong.

[Nerd1000]

What does the AI light stand for? I know it's for locks from other planes, but what does it actually say? Aerial Interceptor I think but I might be wrong.

Airborne Intercept. Probably descended from the british WW2 naming of radar systems (e.g. AI Mk X for american SCR-720 set).

[KingKenny04]

What sort of capabilities should the -67 have compared to the -45? I'm assuming the -67 will be on the -B and I'm curious how that'll balance with other aircraft on the "open" servers like the 104th.

[Beamscanner]

Oh, a small nitpick, but AFAIK CW doesn't indicate a missile launch, but a CW illumination for the SARH missile guidance and this could be both A2A and SAM, I guess. This is started before the missile is launched to establish a SARH seeker lock on necessary for the launch. The missile doesn't have to be launched at all.

 

To clarify, tracking modes (such as STT) on fighters do not use a CW illuminator unless a missile is being fired. They will not use a CW illuminator on a target prior to launching, this is the primary reason why in-game RWRs know when a missile has been "launched" as the only difference between getting locked up in STT and a missile launch(as per your RWR) is that CW waveform.

 

A CW Illuminator can be used without actually firing a missile when using a "Flood Mode". You can trick pilots by using this mode as well.

 

The same cannot be said for some SAMs.

[Dudikoff]

To clarify, tracking modes (such as STT) on fighters do not use a CW illuminator unless a missile is being fired. They will not use a CW illuminator on a target prior to launching, this is the primary reason why in-game RWRs know when a missile has been "launched" as the only difference between getting locked up in STT and a missile launch(as per your RWR) is that CW waveform.

 

Do you have some sources for the exact launch procedure of e.g. AIM-7E/F on the more modern fighters like F-15 or F-14? I have no weapon operating parts of the flight manuals as those are classified so I have to rely on posts from more informed members or hints dropped by former pilots, but I presume the exact sequence of operation varies between different SARH systems (e.g. different WCS, missile variants, etc.).

 

For instance, I've read that on the F-4's, if the AIM-7 missile is set to be tuned (for the AIM-7E variants and earlier I guess; for latter it's more like programmed electronically) to the CW illumination (there's a specific radar missile guidance switch STBY position for that), supposedly the CW transmitter is also active (admittedly, I wonder what's the purpose of the ON position then if the transmitter is active here as well?). So, e.g. theoretically, the RWR launch warning could be programmed to come when both the radar lock pulse and the CW illumination are detected and not to react on the CW alone.

 

But, come to think of it, I wrongly assumed that AIM-7 missiles need a seeker lock on the CW illuminated target before launch (like IIRC R-23R missiles of MiG-23) - given their recessed position under the fuselage, I presume they are tuned (or electronically set) to the CW illumination frequency before launch, plus the direction of the target is programmed to the seeker head (with it's conical scan seekers) so a lock on can be established after the missile was launched and cleared the aircraft. The later M/P variants with their monopulse seeker's have a somewhat simpler launch procedure I guess.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Dudikoff

[Diegeist]

Just adding a bit of info to this thread...

 

My father is a retired Tomcat RIO (F-14A) and we are both very excited for the release of the LNS Tomcat in the coming months(years). The topic of the RWR came up in a casual conversation I was having with him the other day (I was telling him one of my many A-10C vs SAM sob stories), and I asked how the F-14 handled RWR.

 

His response was that it was a terrible system that "never would have worked if they were fired at by a SAM" and said that it "was all but useless". Instead they relied upon the massive amount of radiation they (E-2 and multiple F-14 flights) would sweep the CAP track with. Because of the data-link between the Tomcats, E-2, and the carrier, there was very little that the strike group was unaware of.

 

An interesting side note, he also told me about how in the early 80's the tomcats were coming with rifle scope rails mounted next to the HUD so that the pilots could line up a locked contact with the center line of the aircraft and use the scope to see what it was. I found that funny since they were doing that back in WWII.

 

I cant wait for this module to be released. I will finally be able to experience flight in an F-14 with my old man. I already have an experienced RIO ready to go. Now I just need to buy an Oculs rift...

 

~Dieg

[Fri13]

Just adding a bit of info to this thread...

 

My father is a retired Tomcat RIO (F-14A) and we are both very excited for the release of the LNS Tomcat in the coming months(years).

 

I cant wait for this module to be released. I will finally be able to experience flight in an F-14 with my old man. I already have an experienced RIO ready to go. Now I just need to buy an Oculs rift...

 

~Dieg

 

Lucky You... :thumbup:

[jester_]

Just adding a bit of info to this thread...

 

My father is a retired Tomcat RIO (F-14A) and we are both very excited for the release of the LNS Tomcat in the coming months(years). The topic of the RWR came up in a casual conversation I was having with him the other day (I was telling him one of my many A-10C vs SAM sob stories), and I asked how the F-14 handled RWR.

 

His response was that it was a terrible system that "never would have worked if they were fired at by a SAM" and said that it "was all but useless". Instead they relied upon the massive amount of radiation they (E-2 and multiple F-14 flights) would sweep the CAP track with. Because of the data-link between the Tomcats, E-2, and the carrier, there was very little that the strike group was unaware of.

 

An interesting side note, he also told me about how in the early 80's the tomcats were coming with rifle scope rails mounted next to the HUD so that the pilots could line up a locked contact with the center line of the aircraft and use the scope to see what it was. I found that funny since they were doing that back in WWII.

 

I cant wait for this module to be released. I will finally be able to experience flight in an F-14 with my old man. I already have an experienced RIO ready to go. Now I just need to buy an Oculs rift...

 

~Dieg

 

I love it. My dad is a retired Phantom pilot from Vietnam. The day the Phantom is released, is the day I surrender my HOTAS to him and sit behind him working the radar.

 

Also, can you ask him a question for me? I recall reading an article awhile back that stated the Tomcat RIO had rudimentary flight training and controls in the backseat, so in the event the pilot became incapacitated for whatever reason, the RIO could at least hoof it back to homeplate. Is that true or is my brain just making shit up? I know most F-4 models had flight controls in both seats.

[SCPGrinder66]

that is absolutely not true....no throttle....stick had nothing to do with flight controls and RIO's pedals were ICS and MIC switch...

[BlackLion213]

Also, can you ask him a question for me? I recall reading an article awhile back that stated the Tomcat RIO had rudimentary flight training and controls in the backseat, so in the event the pilot became incapacitated for whatever reason, the RIO could at least hoof it back to homeplate. Is that true or is my brain just making shit up? I know most F-4 models had flight controls in both seats.

 

It's true that the USAF Phantoms had dual controls and WSOs had formal flight training. However, the USN had a different policy, primarily because landing on a carrier was simply not feasible for someone in the rear seat, at least for aircraft with rear seat visibility like the Phantom or Tomcat. As such, none of the USN Phantoms had rear controls and the RIOs (different name than their USAF counterparts) did not receive any flight training. They underwent NFO training instead of the Pilot training.

 

The same carried forward to the Tomcat, which also had no rear controls of any kind. One of the benefit is that RIOs were highly committed to their craft in a way that a GIB might not be....GIB stands for "Guy In Back". The IIAF and IRIAF used pilots as their RIOs instead of dedicated RIOs and many felt that this lead to less competence in the RIO role. Mostly because GIBs simply dealt with their time in the RIO role, focused on returning to the front cockpit whenever they could.

 

-Nick

[Diegeist]

Jester,

 

SCP and BlackLion are quite correct, there were no flight controls in the back seat of a Tomcat. I don't even have to ask him this since I spent many hours as a kid on base in the giant F-14 simulators. The only thing the RIO has is a small stick in front of the main radar screen.

 

As for the flight training, my father was a pilot before he entered the service. So I believe he could have flown the aircraft if he had the controls to do so, but again BlackLion is spot on. The RIOs only received NFO (Naval Flight Officer) training.

 

I have so many great stories from him, one of these days I will pull out the recorder and get them on tape. I feel that someday these amazing experiences could be lost to time unless we share them.

 

If you guys want me to ask him anything let me know, we usually talk shop over football on Sunday : )

 

~Dieg

[BlackLion213]

My father is a retired Tomcat RIO (F-14A) and we are both very excited for the release of the LNS Tomcat in the coming months(years). The topic of the RWR came up in a casual conversation I was having with him the other day (I was telling him one of my many A-10C vs SAM sob stories), and I asked how the F-14 handled RWR.

 

His response was that it was a terrible system that "never would have worked if they were fired at by a SAM" and said that it "was all but useless". Instead they relied upon the massive amount of radiation they (E-2 and multiple F-14 flights) would sweep the CAP track with. Because of the data-link between the Tomcats, E-2, and the carrier, there was very little that the strike group was unaware of.

 

Nice! I missed your response, that's great insight and it's awesome having someone with your access to information.

 

An interesting side note, he also told me about how in the early 80's the tomcats were coming with rifle scope rails mounted next to the HUD so that the pilots could line up a locked contact with the center line of the aircraft and use the scope to see what it was. I found that funny since they were doing that back in WWII.

 

I hear that was a common practice before the TCS was integrated into the fleet. The F-15 pilots did the same thing for a quite a while (like through the 1980s - perhaps till they received their NCTR system).

 

Thank you for the anecdotes and welcome to the DCS forum. :)

 

-Nick

 

PS - thanks for the offer to get questions answered. What squadrons did your father deploy with?

[Diegeist]

BlackLion,

 

Thanks for the welcome! I must admit to being a lurker on these forums for a very long time.

 

Its no problem, my dad loves reliving his old Navy days.

 

To answer your question, he was deployed with VF-11 (Rippers) and later moved to VF-101 (Grim Reapers). At first he was deployed to the Kennedy and did I think 3 cruses, got his neptune certificate (Thats a good story for people that have never been in the Navy) and then went off to the Navy Fighter Weapons School. My memories really begin after he was deployed to the Ike in the mid 80's.

 

~Dieg

[Stratos]

Rep to you Diegeist, but there's a thing is bothering me, as english is not my main language maybe I don't understood it correctly, but the Tomcat will not get SAM radar warning in RWR? I know the Tomcat was designed as a interceptor, but being a A-A fighter implies doing fighter sweeps over enemy territory too, right?

 

Wish we can have more SAM systems in DCS, specially the SA-2 as those will come in handy for early Tomcats.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Stratos

[Diegeist]

Stratos,

 

My understanding is that the Tomcat had an RWR that was capable of detecting SAM radar signals, it just wasn't very good and they didn't rely on it. I think if the F-14 was going to be flying over hostile territory that was SAM capable it probably would have been accompanied by an A-6 Prowler flight.

 

The Tomcats job after all, was first and formost fleet defense. I think I have some pictures laying around that he took of his flight escorting a TU-95 away from the carrier group. And I think you can even see the Russian in the window of the Bear. If I find it and its digitized I will post it up.

 

Ill ask him more about it tomorrow when I see him.

 

Cheers,

~Dieg