Catastrophy Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I was amazed how "easy" the Ka50 handles in flight. The trim works quite well - is that realistic? Is that system used in helicopters usually? Or is it a Kamov specific thing? I still have problems controlling the helo at low speeds but I can count crashes that were due to poor control on one hand.
159th_Falcon Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Most Helicopters today are equipped whit some sort of trim system. Some may only have it on certain axis, others on all, but its a common thing to have in helicopters. Though, the thing that makes the helicopter handle more easily is not the trim as such, its the Stability Augmentation System that's part of the trim system that does. But hey, details. As for the flight model, it seems very realistic for as far and armchair pilot is to judge. And if we can believe ED it is indeed very realistic, as in one of the most accurate helicopter flight models for the consumer market. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] The keeper of all mathematical knowledge and the oracle of flight modeling.:)
sport02 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) the KA50 is especially stable with these two rotors since we have the H1 and the MI8 , it seems to me more easy again . Edited April 9, 2015 by sport02
Reaper6 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 That would be a really hard question to answer, unless there is an actual Ka50 pilot that flies in DCS. But I would assume it would be as close to RL as possible, the coaxial rotor blades provide an inherently stable platform as well as more power/maneuverability compared to airframes that use a tail rotor. And that is why I will enjoy taking down the AH-1(when/if DCS comes out with the module). Any other Helicopter(including AH-64) will never have the maneuverability/climb rate that the Ka50 has. Climb rate especially being vital in going head to head(Ka50 v. AH-1/64), whoever gets above the other first, will surely win! Reaper6 "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
rcjonessnp175 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 That would be a really hard question to answer, unless there is an actual Ka50 pilot that flies in DCS. But I would assume it would be as close to RL as possible, the coaxial rotor blades provide an inherently stable platform as well as more power/maneuverability compared to airframes that use a tail rotor. And that is why I will enjoy taking down the AH-1(when/if DCS comes out with the module). Any other Helicopter(including AH-64) will never have the maneuverability/climb rate that the Ka50 has. Climb rate especially being vital in going head to head(Ka50 v. AH-1/64), whoever gets above the other first, will surely win! Reaper6 Totally agree, wish the U.S. had them in the inventory improved of course. I7 4770k @ 4.6, sli 980 evga oc edition, ssdx2, Sony 55 inch edid hack nvidia 3dvision. Volair sim pit, DK2 Oculus Rift.
Catastrophy Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Helo dogfighting? Against AA rockets and radar equipment?
Catastrophy Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 Most Helicopters today are equipped whit some sort of trim system. Some may only have it on certain axis, others on all, but its a common thing to have in helicopters. Though, the thing that makes the helicopter handle more easily is not the trim as such, its the Stability Augmentation System that's part of the trim system that does. But hey, details. As for the flight model, it seems very realistic for as far and armchair pilot is to judge. And if we can believe ED it is indeed very realistic, as in one of the most accurate helicopter flight models for the consumer market. To be precise: I mean the "UI" - like just pressing the trim button to have effectively attitude and heading programmed on the go. No need to press several buttons. The same button disengages the setting and gives you full control. I am no pilot but I imagine this kind of design offers a good feedback to the user. Is that a real thing or just a simulation simplification?
Reaper6 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Helo dogfighting? Against AA rockets and radar equipment? That's why you stay near cities... Kind of hard to penetrate building with Radar :) Reaper6 "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
Catastrophy Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 For instance, most newer Sikorsky stuff has a Stability aaugmentation System (SAS) that buffers pilot inputs againg an Attitude Heading Reference System (AHRS) which is basically interial measurement units and magnetometers. This system also controls the large horizontal stabilizer automatically. This makes the aircraft very easy to fly. The joke among the Kiowa Warrior community is that Blackhawks is where the guys that can't actually fly helicopters goes. I bet it's just envy talk and they secretly wish for it while they try holding their helo stable playing hide and seek.
Catastrophy Posted April 9, 2015 Author Posted April 9, 2015 They're on their way out. K-Dub is dead meat on a stick. They have no clear follow-on and their funding and mission has been co-opted by the Gray Eagle program (which I worked on for the last seven years). They can either take UAS warrant transition, transition to a different RW platforms (not Apache - those guys are snobs as a community), or hit the bricks and try to find a seat in the AGR. Incidentally, most of Gray Eagle's SDD funding came from the cancellation of the RAH-66 Comanche. Ugh, I think I'd hate it to trade in a rocking platform for joystick and monitor - do they at least have some force feedback when piloting a drone?
King_Hrothgar Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Why would they? FFB is a gamey thing designed to make gamers feel more immersed. It doesn't enhance the drone or pilot's capability in any way. Edit: This thread diverged fast. So yeah, the coaxial design is inherently much more stable than a traditional rotor/tail rotor setup. This is thanks to a wonderful little thing called symmetry. On a purely theoretical basis, if the two rotors were mounted directly above the CG while perfectly level, then the pilot could adjust the collective between the two limits without altering the aircraft's trim at all. This isn't the case on our Ka-50 but it could have been setup that way. A traditional helicopter design is sort of like flying a plane with an engine on the right wing and one facing sideways on the tail. Not the most intuitive thing. Edited April 9, 2015 by King_Hrothgar
sobek Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Why would they? FFB is a gamey thing designed to make gamers feel more immersed. It doesn't enhance the drone or pilot's capability in any way. Depends on how it is used. If you want realistic trim behaviour, there's no way around FFB. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
AlphaOneSix Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Since when do drone pilots "fly" drones for more than the first and last 30 seconds of each flight?
King_Hrothgar Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I know on the MQ-1 they can fly it manually if they wish. I don't think it is typically done given the nature of how they are used, but the option is there and I've seen interviews with MQ-1 pilots where they talk about it. It's also worth noting that the MQ-1 is not the only military drone out there. There are a number of short ranged drones that are flown purely by hand like a traditional RC airplane (with a camera + laptop screen).
Yurgon Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 To be precise: I mean the "UI" - like just pressing the trim button to have effectively attitude and heading programmed on the go. No need to press several buttons. The same button disengages the setting and gives you full control. I am no pilot but I imagine this kind of design offers a good feedback to the user. Is that a real thing or just a simulation simplification? As far as I can tell it's entirely real regarding the Ka-50. A buddy who flies EC-135 in X-Plane (or was it FSX?) says it feels and behaves very much like our Ka-50, due to its stability augmentation system that works much like the Ka-50's.
King_Hrothgar Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Ok, I knew some of them were piloted by actual pilots. Didn't know they were phasing those out. 1
Fri13 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I can relate to the question as KA-50 is so easy to fly and it is so maneuverable so it feels unreal when there isn't real experience under belt. But sometimes the system doesn't feel to behave. Like auto hovering is like having own mind most of the time, sometimes works as would think about and sometimes just wanders off easily. But that is old and known another topic. Once player starts with realism mode, skipping the game mode then the KA-50 is very easy to learn. Sounds crazy but you learn it's capabilities and limits and how to bend those, making KA-50 a deadly one. Get a TrackIR and FFB HOTAS and it's totally different best with its cannon and SHKVAL. i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
BitMaster Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 What's the usual delay for the signal from drone via Sat via RAB to homeland control ? It must be somewhere around 0.2-0.5 seconds, rather greater than lesser I assume. Would FFB make sense if the stall shaker arrives 0.65 sec too late on your stick and the left wing already stalled..?? FFB for sure helps, no doubt, but it must be immedeate or it looses it relevance. Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Sapphire Nitro+ 7800XT - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus XG27ACG QHD 180Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X
AlphaOneSix Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Takeoff and landing is usually handled locally by a terminal controller located at the airfield where the system takes off and lands, thus getting around any latency issues. And again, other than takeoff and landing, it's virtually all autonomous/autopilot.
BaD CrC Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 As far as I can tell it's entirely real regarding the Ka-50. A buddy who flies EC-135 in X-Plane (or was it FSX?) says it feels and behaves very much like our Ka-50, due to its stability augmentation system that works much like the Ka-50's. Yurgon, Compairing DCS PFM with FSX or X Plane, even more when it relates to choppers, sounds a bit blasphemous to me. :noexpression: :laugh: 1 https://www.blacksharkden.com http://discord.gg/blacksharkden
Reaper6 Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Yurgon, Compairing DCS PFM with FSX or X Plane, even more when it relates to choppers, sounds a bit blasphemous to me. :noexpression: :laugh: I agree! more over, you really can't compare a helicopter with a tail rotor vs Coaxial Rotors... Two completely different beasts. Reaper6 "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
Yurgon Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Yurgon, Compairing DCS PFM with FSX or X Plane, even more when it relates to choppers, sounds a bit blasphemous to me. :noexpression: :laugh: I think my buddy referred to an Add-On chopper, though I'm not quite sure. In order to calm down the inquisition, my point was not that it flies like the Ka-50 but that the trim and SAS are apparently comparable. I think that should be well within the confines of non-blasphemous comparisons. :smartass: I agree! more over, you really can't compare a helicopter with a tail rotor vs Coaxial Rotors... Two completely different beasts. As above, trim and SAS appear to be quite comparable in complexity and capability, i.e. full autopilot. The question was whether the Ka-50 trim is realistic. Yes, it is, and to support that, I brought up the EC-135 in another simulation. How that actually feels and how well the flight model captures its characteristics was beyond the scope of my comparison, so feel free to put the pitchforks down again. :D 2
Reaper6 Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 I think my buddy referred to an Add-On chopper, though I'm not quite sure. In order to calm down the inquisition, my point was not that it flies like the Ka-50 but that the trim and SAS are apparently comparable. I think that should be well within the confines of non-blasphemous comparisons. :smartass: As above, trim and SAS appear to be quite comparable in complexity and capability, i.e. full autopilot. The question was whether the Ka-50 trim is realistic. Yes, it is, and to support that, I brought up the EC-135 in another simulation. How that actually feels and how well the flight model captures its characteristics was beyond the scope of my comparison, so feel free to put the pitchforks down again. :D Lol, +1 for you :) "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
audax Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 As far as I can tell it's entirely real regarding the Ka-50. A buddy who flies EC-135 in X-Plane (or was it FSX?) says it feels and behaves very much like our Ka-50, due to its stability augmentation system that works much like the Ka-50's. The EC-135 and the BK 117 in X-Plane. Helicopters in FSX are just a bad joke. Yurgon, Compairing DCS PFM with FSX or X Plane, even more when it relates to choppers, sounds a bit blasphemous to me. Do not underestimate X-Plane. The flight model for helicopters is very good. See for example the Dreamfoil Bell 407 and 206 which is just spot on according to pilots and my personal experience as a pure sim pilot. The EC 135 model is used by many pilots to train, at home and in full simulators. I think my buddy referred to an Add-On chopper, though I'm not quite sure. In order to calm down the inquisition, my point was not that it flies like the Ka-50 but that the trim and SAS are apparently comparable. I think that should be well within the confines of non-blasphemous comparisons. As above, trim and SAS appear to be quite comparable in complexity and capability, i.e. full autopilot. To clarify: The default helicopter models in X-Plane are pretty good, some third party models are exceptionally good. The autopilot in modern helicopters like the BK 117 and EC 135 works more or less like the autopilot in the KA-50 in that you specify an attitude and altitude the system manages the rest. Of course they handle completely differently except for that. If anyone wants to try the EC 135: It is freeware and available here http://www.rotorsim.de/en/ec-135/features.html 1
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