Can't destroy a single tank?

[Nooch]

Hello all! Now that I know how to operate all the systems in the Mig-21, I decided to practice ground attacks so I set up a custom mission in which I aligned several Leopard tanks. I loaded my plane with S-5 rockets and UPK gun pods and to my surprise, after several pass and a few rounds on target, no tank got even slightly damaged. It's very discouraging how that went on because I think I should have killed a few tanks (please see track attached below)...

So my question: is it my skill or DCS damage management that is in fault here? :noexpression:

I also tried with RBK 250 cluster bombs and got the same result.

 

EDIT: Here is a video showing the key moments of the track https://youtu.be/zs82e_jlzAU

By request I have included the mission file as well

invincible tanks.trk

MiG-21 ground attack practice.miz

Edited May 13, 2015 by Nooch

[whitehot]

s-57 rockets and rbk-250 aren't going to do much more than plaster MBTs. They are anti-personnel weapons.

 

So the answer is, it is not your skill, nor the dcs damage model (although having a more detailed one would probably lead you to have mobility kills, firepower kills and so on).

 

If you want rockets effective against tanks, you pick s-8 KOM (heat warheads, anyway u need to hit MBTs from sides or better, the rear).

 

If u want cluster bombs, the RBK-500 with the heaviest bomblet load should do it (can't remember its exact name in game).

 

Although, I'm not sure the Mig-21 can load up this ordnance, remember that that AC was never conceived as an anti-tank platform, and probably if it had to undertake such mission it would had loaded iron bombs

[Hadwell]

groms, and S-24 rockets will take out tanks, or the BL755 or 500kg

[Kuky]

For me S-24 rockets are most effective against tanks. For everything else, S-5 rockets do good damage.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Kuky

[Nooch]

I tried with RBK500 (attached on Su-25T) and BL755: same result. Even after multiple direct impact on target, tanks still wont die! I'm really starting to think there is a problem somewhere...

I guess S-24 and Grom work well but they shouldn't be the only option here to destroy tanks. I mean S-24 is actually designed to destroy big objects like trains, buildings, etc. So I guess IRL they probably never used it against tanks.

[PiedDroit]

The S-8 would be effective against those tanks but you can't use it on the MiG-21.

What you have left are weapons designed to take out buildings, as mentioned above - the S-24 is good for tanks but requires fine aiming, a near miss won't get you a kill.

 

In your track the tanks you're trying to take out are Leopards, they're very tough and much more modern than the weapons carried by the -21. Did you try against T-55's?

(i didn't watch the whole track so I don't know if you could destroy those Marders with S-5's).

 

From my personal experience, taking out tanks with cluster bombs only works consistently when dropping low, to get a very tight "grouping".

On multiple tanks you can drop higher for a more dispersed shot and hope for a lucky hit or two.

[pepin1234]

With S-5 is hard against Western MBT. You can damage them but is hard destroy them. S-24B is the best choice. I don't like the Kh-66 for anti-tank task. The S-24B is an amazing rocket with 130 kg TNT is enough to deadly damage a ship

[whitehot]

I didn't see the track, but if we're talking leopard 1, they have pretty much the same armor as the t-55. As a tank, it had a rather light protection, even from the front - I would say that antitank cluster bombs should disable it 9 times out of 10.

 

If it's leo2 though, I guess that nothing less than a direct hit from a 500 kg bomb would cause its destruction. the s-24 - probably would cause damage, but only sides or rear shot.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Just ram the damn thing!

[ARM505]

Just ram the damn thing!

 

*Has PTSD episode with flashbacks to Warthunder Ground Forces...*

[Holbeach]

Try the RN-28.

 

You should have no more trouble. :megalol:

 

 

..

[Nooch]

Here I tried with BL755 (600lb anti armor cluster bomb): direct hit on target. Still no damage. https://youtu.be/3zxDdNZGYB0

 

Try the RN-28.

 

You should have no more trouble. :megalol:

 

 

..

 

Yeah I was so desparate about destroying those tanks, I thought about it for a moment :D

Edited May 11, 2015 by Nooch

[WildBillKelsoe]

Ok, I am going to try this.

[Art-J]

Here I tried with BL755 (600lb anti armor cluster bomb): direct hit on target. Still no damage. https://youtu.be/3zxDdNZGYB0

 

Don't want to sound like a like a smart..ss, but no matter how many times I watch this clip, on both views I can clearly see "direct miss" (both cluster groups fell a few meters in front and to the left of the tank) :D.

 

Obviously, small dispersion of cluster munitions in DCS doesn't help!

Edited May 11, 2015 by Art-J

[johnv2pt0]

Hello all! Now that I know how to operate all the systems in the Mig-21, I decided to practice ground attacks so I set up a custom mission in which I aligned several Leopard tanks. I loaded my plane with S-5 rockets and UPK gun pods and to my surprise, after several pass and a few rounds on target, no tank got even slightly damaged. It's very discouraging how that went on because I think I should have killed a few tanks (please see track attached below)...

So my question: is it my skill or DCS damage management that is in fault here? :noexpression:

I also tried with RBK 250 cluster bombs and got the same result.

 

EDIT: Here is a video showing the key moments of the track https://youtu.be/zs82e_jlzAU

 

This might help illustrate some of the weapons for you. I made it before the Mig-21 was released, so not all weapons are shown, but you can get a feel for how most weapons need to be designed specifically for taking out heavily armored targets to do any damage...or get a direct kinetic kill.

 

[iFoxRomeo]

Try the FAB-500 M62. With these I can crack modern tanks.

 

Fox

[Nooch]

Don't want to sound like a like a smart..ss, but no matter how many times I watch this clip, on both views I can clearly see "direct miss" (both cluster groups fell a few meters in front and to the left of the tank) :D.

 

Obviously, small dispersion of cluster munitions in DCS doesn't help!

 

The left wing bomb indeed arrived about 3 meters away from the tank but the right wing one directly touched it. The center of the impact is so close to the tank that the pipper still appeared dead on target. The shot was pretty accurate and in the real world I can't see it as not being lethal, especially with 1200lbs of cluster mombs.

 

On the other hand, FAB bombs work every time. I tested FAB-250 and FAB-100 on MER, very effective. I don't understand why there is such a big difference between cluster and non cluster bombs. I mean, I am no expert in high explosives and I could be wrong but I think both should do damage on armored targets. Even the gsh-23 gun should do damage. Even though I made sure to select A-G bullets for max effectiveness, you can see in the OP video it does no damage at all. Guys what do you think?

Edited May 12, 2015 by Nooch

[PiedDroit]

Cluster bombs are very small, so it's quite expected they do less damage. They are effective through multiple hits, therefore you must adjust the dispersion in relation to the target (tight for singles, spread for multiples) to get a reasonable pk.

EDIT: The FAB-100 MER*4 are very versatile, they are big enough to do good damage, you can use them like clusters as well, you alter the dispersion by changing the way you drop them (high or low, steady or traversing).

 

Regarding cannon, tanks are very tough against it. The A-10's 30mm can destroy any type. The Su-25's 30mm is usable against T-55 (you have to be patient). Everything else is but a scratch.

Edited May 12, 2015 by PiedDroit
Typo

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

Yes. But aren't cluster munitions to explode in mid-air so as to disperse all the (cluster) bomblets? In the above video, the BL-755 bomb just impacted and no cluster munitions were ever released.

[Nooch]

It disperses at 0:17. There is no proper animation for this bomb but you can see it disappears meaning it starts to disperse.

[johnv2pt0]

The left wing bomb indeed arrived about 3 meters away from the tank but the right wing one directly touched it. The center of the impact is so close to the tank that the pipper still appeared dead on target. The shot was pretty accurate and in the real world I can't see it as not being lethal, especially with 1200lbs of cluster mombs.

 

On the other hand, FAB bombs work every time. I tested FAB-250 and FAB-100 on MER, very effective. I don't understand why there is such a big difference between cluster and non cluster bombs. I mean, I am no expert in high explosives and I could be wrong but I think both should do damage on armored targets. Even the gsh-23 gun should do damage. Even though I made sure to select A-G bullets for max effectiveness, you can see in the OP video it does no damage at all. Guys what do you think?

 

I think you have high expectations from weapon systems and maybe a lack of understanding how the game itself handles damage on targets. Also, it doesn't matter where the pipper is or how accurate a drop is compared to the real world. What matters is where the weapon goes. If it doesn't hit it doesn't hit...regardless of why.

 

With ground targets in the game, there aren't different textures applied for various amounts of damage taken. A couple bomblets hit the target maybe...so how much damage is that? 5 points, 10, 80? You don't know. You could do 99 points of damage and not see any change on the tank below, but if you do 1 more then it will explode. This explanation might not be 100% accurate but it's close enough for the discussion at hand.

 

Also, FABs work better because all the explosive force and all the kinetic force is concentrated into the target. The game doesn't recognize the difference between a shaped charge designed to punch a pinhole into a tank and kill the crew or a general purpose HE explosion. There are no mobility or weapon kills (as stated above) so the damage value given to a general purpose bomb is always greater than multiple bomblets in DCS.

 

I never use cluster munitions on hard targets in DCS. If you do you'll find yourself disappointed every time :)

 

EDIT: just remembered original question was on rockets and gun. Gun should be obvious, but rockets as I believe was already said require direct hits and lots of them. It looks like you're on target because of smoke, but if you could see the rockets without the smoke you'd see them all missing the target. Watch that video above and look closely at the s-8kom footage...which are much superior to the s-5.

Edited May 12, 2015 by johnv2pt0

[Nooch]

Yep I've watched your video, very informative and well shot.

Regarding target damage, there is a life bar for each target on the F10 map. There you can see their health remain at 100% even after multiple passes.

[johnv2pt0]

Do you mind uploading the .miz file?

[Agiel7]

Aircraft historically haven't done terribly well against main battle tanks or their analogues in WWII until the development of cluster munitions, air-launched anti-tank guided missiles, and the laser-guided bomb. For instance, dropping a ~500lbs Mk. 82 anything more than 15ft away from a T-72 would give the crew a major case of tinnitus but would otherwise leave the tank still usable.

 

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/combat-aircraft-versus-armour-in-wwii/

[Art-J]

They don't disperse when released a tad too low (happened more than once to me), making dive attacks in MiG-21 difficult. The best way of attacking targets with cluster munitions in this plane is... taking a wingman and letting him do it :D. AI pilots with their sixth aiming sense don't have problems with dropping them in level flight high enough for disperse pattern to be optimal.