Impossible to fly for anyone else?

[Barnstormer1126]

Hey all

 

So I picked up the SU-27 and...holy mother of christ, I know Sukhois are known for maneuverability but...I literally can't dogfight at any altitude or any airspeed, because the second I stop flying straight and level it just loses all semblance of control and stability.

 

Like, I'll twitch the stick, and it'll start doing all these crazy maneuvers, which inevitably puts me into an unrecoverable spin/stall, pilot blacks out/dies, and I crash. I know DCS is supposed to be all realistic and have realistic flight models, but...damn, man. How the hell am I supposed to dogfight in CQB if the second I roll/climb/do anything it just goes absolutely crazy? I mean...I figure if I have throttle set to full AB, and I'm already going 400 kts, a simple 3-4 G turn shouldn't make me stall out/lose control as if I'm trying to make that turn at 150 knots with throttle at zero. And yet that's what happens. It...actually kinda reminds me of what would happen in CFS3 if I had one damaged wing and pulled back on the stick, the plane woud auto-roll in the direction of the damaged wing.

 

I don't have this problem with the rest of the planes I have (F-15, SU-25, or A-10). Am I missing something?

[Ultra]

You may have the flight stability system disabled. I think it's the 'S' key. Sometimes people mistake the 'S' key for the nosewheel steering since that's the key in the F-15.

[Kelevra9987]

As I was the first time in the Su-27, I said to myself "What a shitty plane." "Will never fly it again" and so on. But the next day I just tried not to touch "The Magic Key" and just fly it. Do some Maneuver and last but not least some Guns-Only Dogfight against some F-4s, nothin special. But this Bird flys like a charm. Do some Practice with the ASC Turned on and you will love this bird.

 

You can assure that the ASC is on, when the Switch shown below is coverd.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Kelevra9987

[GGTharos]

So I picked up the SU-27 and...holy mother of christ, I know Sukhois are known for maneuverability but...I literally can't dogfight at any altitude or any airspeed, because the second I stop flying straight and level it just loses all semblance of control and stability.

 

So you're having some form of control issue, or you don't know how to fly a plane, or both. Provide a track so that it can be evaluated :)

 

It...actually kinda reminds me of what would happen in CFS3 if I had one damaged wing and pulled back on the stick, the plane woud auto-roll in the direction of the damaged wing.

This is what happens when you reach high AoA. First you get wing-rock, then one wing gives up and the aircraft rolls over completely towards it. Careless rudder input tends to compound this.

 

I don't have this problem with the rest of the planes I have (F-15, SU-25, or A-10). Am I missing something?

Maybe, maybe not. Please provide track.

 

PS: And I mean a short track. Don't throw in some one hour flight and then say 'This happens at time such and such'. Create a short track specifically for demonstrating the problem.

[Barnstormer1126]

Yeah, it definitely wasn't the stability control, cuz it was already on; I hit the S key which turned it off and the problem got WORSE XP

 

No, like Secret and Kelevra were saying, it's apparently just way more finicky than, say, the F-15 that I'm used to (because I can dogfight/fly fine in that). I played around some more last night and I could get the SU to perform sorta adequately, but I was having problems where I'd make that 3-4g turn I was talking about, and suddenly the nose would pitch in the opposite direction, like I was pushing forward on the stick rather than pulling. I know why it happened, I lost too much speed in the turn, but the plane reacting in that manner (like it was literally possessed) in that situation just baffles me, because in all my simming years I've never had one do that on me O_o

 

But Tharos, what's this about a 'track'? Is that just some slang for 'video' I've not heard yet?

[GGTharos]

No, the game always produces a track (a recording of your flight). When you finish playing in single-play, it asks you whether you want to save the track IIRC.

 

In MP, it just always records one for you, you can usually find them in your saved games/DCS/tracks folder.

[pepin1234]

By my Side is the same. This aircraft is to extreme and dangerous to control. This PFM of the Su-27 does not worth the "simulation" level.

[BlazexX23Xx]

DCS is not perfect.

As for the SU-27, its the flight control that controls rudder gives roll stability problems (all you need to do is roll and try to level again too see what I am talking about).

Its center of gravity position contributes to making it even more unstable ->

Inverted spins... be careful with pushing the joystick forward (even though this seems very improbable to happen in real life, too dangerous).

Don't pull too much in loops (if you get below 300 kmh you'll find very hard to gain speed again).

The SU-27 is not that bad, but... after its (both) PFM though, the F-15 is definitely superior...

 

Well... it's not.

[GGTharos]

That is correct. The Su-27 is superior in the dogfight arena, period, end of story. All you have to do is not be hamfisted.

[theropod]

the stability of Dcs su-27 varies from person to person.

unlike other aircrafts su-27 needs more and more practice to know the limits and push the limits.

for me, it is stable like f-15

maybe you need more practice flight to know each other with su-27:joystick:

and dont forget it is on beta stage and that stage will take longer.

[billman]

I fined the su27 very stable, but you can't pull the stick more then 1/2 of the way back.

[Kelevra9987]

The Su-27 is a very twitchy flight model and is not that easy to handle as the F-15 is. I personally found that the Su is, after several hours of flying this little machine, way superior than the F-15. It's more maneuverable and at least for me can keep energy longer in a dogfight. The FM is very enjoyable, if you put effort in learning to fly it.

[Boomer20]

To be able to fly the Su-27 comfortably, one must master the art of trimming. The Su-27 reacts strongly to speed changes and generally (for me) requires a lot of nose down trim, but as your speed changes, where your trim needs to be changes alot more compared to say the F-15. But once you got the trim sorted she flies like a dream.

[esb77]

If you have bad habits in terms of piloting and abuse the Su-27 you get to reap the full consequences of your piloting mistakes. The aircraft will not intervene to save you from your mistakes.

 

If you turn the stability control off and don't bother trimming, it can be a bit of a challenge to control. In particular, excessive nose down stick inputs tend to be unrecoverable errors.

 

With the stability control on, I find it no more difficult to control than the Su-25 or 25T.

 

The two problems I see people having a lot are:

 

1) There's no G force felt from the sim, so if you don't watch your instruments or have a lot of experience with the PFM it is VERY easy to use too much stick forward and get into trouble dropping the nose.

 

2) The Su-27 behaves so well all the way out to its limits that people get surprised when they go over the limits and things go bad. Reading the manual and practice flights where you gradually and gently explore the plane's capabilities are the solution for this.

[DarkFire]

Hey all

 

So I picked up the SU-27 and...holy mother of christ, I know Sukhois are known for maneuverability but...I literally can't dogfight at any altitude or any airspeed, because the second I stop flying straight and level it just loses all semblance of control and stability.

 

Like, I'll twitch the stick, and it'll start doing all these crazy maneuvers, which inevitably puts me into an unrecoverable spin/stall, pilot blacks out/dies, and I crash. I know DCS is supposed to be all realistic and have realistic flight models, but...damn, man. How the hell am I supposed to dogfight in CQB if the second I roll/climb/do anything it just goes absolutely crazy? I mean...I figure if I have throttle set to full AB, and I'm already going 400 kts, a simple 3-4 G turn shouldn't make me stall out/lose control as if I'm trying to make that turn at 150 knots with throttle at zero. And yet that's what happens. It...actually kinda reminds me of what would happen in CFS3 if I had one damaged wing and pulled back on the stick, the plane woud auto-roll in the direction of the damaged wing.

 

I don't have this problem with the rest of the planes I have (F-15, SU-25, or A-10). Am I missing something?

 

Yep, when I first came back to DCS after FC3 was released and the Su-27 received the professional flight model I decided that it was uncontrollable to the point of being broken and unusable.

 

It isn't, not even close, but it does take quite a bit of getting used to its idiosyncrasies, particularly if you decide to operate on the hairy edges of the flight envelope.

 

The way to approach the Su-27 is to take things slowly. Take it for a drive, no weapons, and fly around for a few hours to get used to the way in which it behaves in different flight regimes. You'll soon get comfortable with the way it behaves, and once you are you can start to push things closer to the edge a bit. Rinse and repeat.

 

As others commented, the Su-27 has few equals in a low to medium altitude turning fight. Below about 6,000m its ability to point and absolute nose authority are absolutely amazing. The need for constant trimming quickly becomes an absolute pain in the backside, but I suppose that's part of the life of a Flanker driver.

 

Take the time to get used to the thing and it will be very, very rewarding. The things it can do in its favoured flight regime are astonishing.

[ShuRugal]

If you have bad habits in terms of piloting and abuse the Su-27 you get to reap the full consequences of your piloting mistakes. The aircraft will not intervene to save you from your mistakes.

 

This.

 

The Flanker is an exceptionally maneuverable aircraft, and it retains that maneuverability well into flight regimes that will have the F-15 falling out of the sky like a brick. That ability comes at a price: Even with the ASC enabled, it is possible to push the Su-27 beyond design limits very quickly from stable flight at any speed or altitude. Once you do this, it is extremely difficult to recover control (assuming the pilot even survives the initial departure, they can be extremely violent).

 

If you fail to fly coordinated, you will eventually depart. If you move the stick rapidly, you will depart. If you exceed AoA limits, you will depart.

 

The plane is very unforgiving, but once you learn to operate within its limits, the amount that you can push the plane will astonish you.

[Fri13]

I fined the su27 very stable, but you can't pull the stick more then 1/2 of the way back.

It is more like 2cm. I have G940 with 32cm extension (so very long stick) and I cant pull back more than couple centimeters without Su-27 reacting aggressively on higher speed than 500km/h. I can move stick far more only when in very slow speeds and it reacts very nicely. But if i want to trim for forward flight, i need to keep stick 80-90% forward from its max movement.

 

And all these just make feeling that the FBW doesn't work at all as should because at high speeds it is way too dangerous to pilot to get killed by very small accidental stick movement, like sneeze by accident without flying by autopilot in 750km/h speed and you will be easily in inverted flight.

 

The problem isnt what plane can do, it is how the stick makes plane to react.

 

Sure i could adjust curves and input/output levels but it would dramatically affect differently on different flight speeds.

I fined the su27 very stable, but you can't pull the stick more then 1/2 of the way back.

[Fri13]

If you have bad habits in terms of piloting and abuse the Su-27 you get to reap the full consequences of your piloting mistakes. The aircraft will not intervene to save you from your mistakes.

 

That is wrong as in documents the Su-27 engineers and pilots praise the computerized FBW that denies pilot from giving dangerous inputs and why it flies like a dream as it doesn't do anything crazy, without pilot disabling the augmentations etc to override the safety features and finally disable functionality allowing to pull extensive maneuvers.

 

So now there is like a single button to override all and the plane doesn't have safety features.

[Ironhand]

... Am I missing something?

FWIW, after hours and hours and hours (actually years) of flying the standard flight model version, my first experience with the PFM version was a HOLY SH-T! experience, too. Not as severe as yours but it was definitely not the experience I was expecting. Within short order, though, I learned to go easy on the stick movements--a smooth pull instead of a jerk, etc.--and she flies like a dream. Stick with it. Hopefully you'll start to enjoy her. too.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Ironhand

[pepin1234]

I was a fan of the powerful Su-27. After this PFM I abandoned this bird. I find this is not the point for simulate the Su-27. I really hope this gone change someday for better.

Edited May 21, 2015 by pepin1234

[SDsc0rch]

wow - it seems like people clamor for "realistic" -- but when they actually get it, they complain

 

i wonder.. the people who have trouble with realistic flight models, i wonder if they've ever flown even a small GA aircraft

 

??

[wasserfall]

Now with my 10cm stick extension on the Warthog stick it's much more comfortabel to fly

i have to trim but not as much without the extension, there's a lot more throw in the stick and the centering is

not so strong anymore.

There's no problem flying the Su anymore

 

Just my thoughts

 

Cheers!

[Home Fries]

I hear you, SDsc0rch. Be careful what you wish for...you might just get it!

 

I love the Su-27 PFM myself, though even with trim it can be a beast to maintain level flight. It's like a high end sports car: it will do what you tell it to, but if you abuse it you'll be severely punished in return.

 

Only thing is I've never been able to fly with ASC off; as soon as I flip the switch I find myself in an inverted flat spin.:helpsmilie:

[Ultra]

I haven't flown the SU much at all, only a few times. The first time I wanted to mess with the model. I put it into an inverted flat spin and then recovered, then flew it under some bridges on the quick mission.

 

I dont see the big deal, it didn't seem like anything crazy to me. Just a little twitchy. If you're having a lot of trouble, you should just make some joystick curves you like. :music_whistling:

[DarkFire]

 

...

 

Only thing is I've never been able to fly with ASC off; as soon as I flip the switch I find myself in an inverted flat spin.:helpsmilie:

 

The secret to this is to apply a degree of back-pressure on the stick before you turn off the ACS, the reason being that at most air speeds the nose will immediately and violently pitch downwards on entering direct control mode. This, and the in-game immediate death of the pilot due to instant and vast negative G, is what causes the typical inverted departure or shuttlecock-of-death. If you're prepared for it and counter it when it begins to happen then you'll be fine. Mostly fine. Probably. With the ACS off the thing becomes highly sensitive to pitch inputs but at the expense of rather unrealistic G-loads and consequent huge loss of energy the Su-27 can be made to perform almost unbelievable turning manoeuvres.

 

Personally I still consider the "S" key to be the "press here to die" key and never disengage the FCS. The Su-27 is incredibly manoeuvrable as it is with the system engaged. That plus the fact that when G-load damage modelling finally becomes a thing turning off the ACS will become even more dangerous.