AtaliaA1 Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Agreed; a little disappointing considering EDGE being a top notch graphics engine, which should feature improved shadows, self-shading and (hopefully) ambient occlusion. EDGE is a band aid. It is the equivalent of having a Porche and purchasing an after market cruise control system. It works but isn't as good as updating the software to a better computer language, on par with other programs often discussed here such as ARMA. and the like. Edge is simply a program that will put DCS into a box (program) that is capable of running "some" of the modern graphics enhancements. It isn't capable of running all of them at there best. For what this software does it will be an improvement. The issue will become how do we proceed once it is also surpassed by new technology. Hopefully the "Band aid" will allow time to rewrite the software using a modern programming language capable of running in an environment equal to the modern CPU and GPU Technology. I can't recall the college name at present but there is work being done that will allow a programmer to insert his older software into a "Converter" (if you will) this program will update the software to the latest and greatest programming language. Let's hope it is finished not long after Edge hits the market. Edited June 20, 2015 by AtaliaA1 This was a Boutique Builder iBuypower rig. Until I got the tinker bug again i7 920 @3.6Mhz 12Gig Corsair XMS3 ram 1600 Nvidia 760 SLi w/4Gig DDR5 Ram Intel 310 SSD HDD 160 Gb + Western Digital 4Terabyte HDD Creative SB X-Fi HD Audio Logitech X-530 5.1 Surround Speaker System Dual Acer 32"Monitors. PSU 1200 w Thermaltake Win10 64Bit.
Auger73 Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 EDGE is a band aid. It is the equivalent of having a Porche and purchasing an after market cruise control system. It works but isn't as good as updating the software to a better computer language, on par with other programs often discussed here such as ARMA. and the like. Edge is simply a program that will put DCS into a box (program) that is capable of running "some" of the modern graphics enhancements. It isn't capable of running all of them at there best. For what this software does it will be an improvement. The issue will become how do we proceed once it is also surpassed by new technology. Hopefully the "Band aid" will allow time to rewrite the software using a modern programming language capable of running in an environment equal to the modern CPU and GPU Technology. I can't recall the college name at present but there is work being done that will allow a programmer to insert his older software into a "Converter" (if you will) this program will update the software to the latest and greatest programming language. Let's hope it is finished not long after Edge hits the market. The "computer language" used is not changing - I would be very surprised if it was written in anything besides C++. DCS extends it's engine with lua for writing scripts (to make it easier and simpler than coding everything in C++). All versions of Arma were written in C++. The game engine is what is changing, and the API (DirectX 9 -> DirectX 11) that said game engines use. They are also extending the capabilities of the engine itself, so it isn't purely cosmetic. This is a really substantial undertaking.
leafer Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 No, Flanker, Flanker 2.xx, Lockon, and DCSW were all freestyled in C++. DCS 2.0 is written in Russian and that's why it ghon be a beast, foo. ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) [...] No. C++ is still the bread and butter high level language for programming computationally intensive games and their engines. Your post is pretty much a misconception. Edit: To take your boxes example, at worst, EDGE means putting DCS out of an old box and putting it inside a newer one. At best, it means DCS is put out of a box, put next to a new box and "loosely coupled" to that box, making the core DCS box smaller and easier to service and hopefully facilitating similar moves for other parts of the DCS core. Edited June 20, 2015 by sobek Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
Aginor Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 What Sobek said. With all the "modern languages" you sacrifice performance. DCSW weapons cheat sheet speed cheat sheet
upupandaway Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 No. C++ is still the bread and butter high level language for programming computationally intensive games and their engines. Your post is pretty much a misconception. I guess I understand why it's taking so long then. ;) In my experience finding flaws in the code as well as type-os can be time consuming where other environments are much more comfortable. Did not know this before. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Deedle, deedle!
Buzzles Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 EDGE is a band aid. It is the equivalent of having a Porche and purchasing an after market cruise control system. It works but isn't as good as updating the software to a better computer language, on par with other programs often discussed here such as ARMA. and the like. Edge is simply a program that will put DCS into a box (program) that is capable of running "some" of the modern graphics enhancements. It isn't capable of running all of them at there best. For what this software does it will be an improvement. The issue will become how do we proceed once it is also surpassed by new technology. Hopefully the "Band aid" will allow time to rewrite the software using a modern programming language capable of running in an environment equal to the modern CPU and GPU Technology. I can't recall the college name at present but there is work being done that will allow a programmer to insert his older software into a "Converter" (if you will) this program will update the software to the latest and greatest programming language. Let's hope it is finished not long after Edge hits the market. What a load of drivel. I'd suggest you read up on game engine construction to understand just how flawed your post is. Also try spending some time looking at languages, I'd like to know your suggestions for replacing the C++ core with another language (there's multiple very good reasons why C++ is the industry standard, and also why the DirectX API's are all in C++), and I'd like to know your recommendations for replacing the LUA engine for another language that offers improvements on what that offers while still allowing the flexibilty it has now. Fancy trying Star Citizen? Click here!
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) I can't recall the college name at present but there is work being done that will allow a programmer to insert his older software into a "Converter" (if you will) this program will update the software to the latest and greatest programming language. Let's hope it is finished not long after Edge hits the market. This isn't being invented by a guy in a college. Source-to-source compilers are a reality right now, however you can't realistically expect to develop a complex program in one language, put it through a meatgrinder aka a transpiler and expect efficient and well structured code to come out the other end. The only time i have seen a transpiler used with a reasonable level of success was in the automotive industry where code is written in a graphical "connect the blocks" style language called Simulink and then compiled to C to run on automotive control units. The software however is written with rather strict style rules specifically with the transpiling process in mind from the outset. There are things like the Python specific Python 2 to Python 3 converter, but that is hardly comparable to a real transpiler. Edited June 20, 2015 by sobek Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 I guess I understand why it's taking so long then. ;) In my experience finding flaws in the code as well as type-os can be time consuming where other environments are much more comfortable. Did not know this before. There are tools for C++ just as for any other language that help you catch syntax errors. Of course the more powerful your programming language is, the more possibilities there are to also make complex errors that can not be caught by the compiler. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
Aginor Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Not a huge fan of Microsoft, but Visual Studio is IMO the best tool to work with C++ and helps a lot with debugging. In fact it makes debugging that easy that I don't really see that switching the language might provide any advantage in that regard. DCSW weapons cheat sheet speed cheat sheet
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 As of late, I'm a huge fan of Sublime Text 3. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
PiedDroit Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Many people seem to confuse "modern language" = "modern application". In most of the cases using a modern language might bring you some comfort in development (because it integrates modern paradigms). But using an "old language" still allows you to do modern applications if this language supports the features you need. If the "old language" is actually updated over time and also you have all the modern APIs running with it, so there's no trouble using it to develop modern stuff as fast as you'd do with another language. C++ latest iteration dates from 2014 and most APIs are written in C++ anyway, so you can't go wrong there. It's not like they're using Cobol or FORTRAN, in that case I would be worried too. Also some modern languages are oriented toward a certain style of application (web, GUI, database-query style) that are not fit for the flight simulation needs because the performace is not up to the task or the APIs are not there. "modern" does not mean "can-do-all-better". About DCS, we don't even know if they changed the language (I doubt they will, but hey why not). So what you call a "band-aid" might be something more. A change in API or even a change in software internal architecture can be a big thing in the programming world. Cheers ;)
upupandaway Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) There are tools for C++ just as for any other language that help you catch syntax errors. Of course the more powerful your programming language is, the more possibilities there are to also make complex errors that can not be caught by the compiler. I´m still learning, so I don´t have any real experience with complex problems, but I know that functionality from Java (Eclipse). The compiler we used for learning C++ did not have it, but that was probably intentional. Knowing that DCS is written in this language makes me want to see some code even more, just to try and make some sense of it, but I guess that won´t ever happen :D Edited June 20, 2015 by upupandaway [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Deedle, deedle!
PiedDroit Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Ok, thanks for the hint. As I said, I´m pretty much a noob ;) Doh I just deleted my answer, since I deemed it to be off-topic and I didn't want to derail the thread, sorry 'bout that. PM me if you don't remember it, or open a new thread in the chit-chat section ;)
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 I´m still learning, so I don´t have any real experience with complex problems, but I know that functionality from Java (Eclipse). The compiler we used for learning C++ did not have it, but that was probably intentional. Knowing that DCS is written in this language makes me want to see some code even more, just to try and make some sense of it, but I guess that won´t ever happen :D Take a look at the experimental F-16 flight model testbed that's floating around. It's programmed in C++ AFAIK, though not by ED. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
Buzzles Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 If the "old language" is actually updated over time and also you have all the modern APIs running with it, so there's no trouble using it to develop modern stuff as fast as you'd do with another language. It's not like they're using Cobol or FORTRAN, in that case I would be worried too. Interesting side note, Cobol's latest official spec was only in 2014, and Fortran's was in 2010. Also on the subject of Fortran, considering what's it's been designed and optimised for, I'd be the opposite of worried if it was being used in the physics areas. From what I've heard, it's quite good when used for computational fluid dynamics (CFD), which afaik is the area of maths that underpins ED's AFM/PFM systems. It's all about picking the right tools for the job. Fancy trying Star Citizen? Click here!
PiedDroit Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 Interesting side note, Cobol's latest official spec was only in 2014, and Fortran's was in 2010. Also on the subject of Fortran, considering what's it's been designed and optimised for, I'd be the opposite of worried if it was being used in the physics areas. From what I've heard, it's quite good when used for computational fluid dynamics (CFD), which afaik is the area of maths that underpins ED's AFM/PFM systems. It's all about picking the right tools for the job. Yeah FORTRAN is really good for the math, I was more thinking about 3D. It even have some object oriented features now (2003), but, well, you see my point ;)
King_Hrothgar Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 C++ does complicated math just fine. I majored in physics and used C++ in many of my junior/senior level classes for all the really awful equations that had to be solved. I wasn't calculating flight models in those courses, but the problems dealt with were every bit as complicated. I've always found C++ fairly intuitive for this type of thing. That said, I'm not a professional programmer so I'm only familiar with a few languages. Fortran is not among them.
PiedDroit Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) C++ does complicated math just fine. I'm not saying other can't do complicated math, that's not the point, of course you can do complicated math in C++. You could even do complicated math in bash/bc if you wanted to ;) Fortran has some neat built-in stuff, like some mathematical functions and parallel programming. For example, in C++ to compute x^y you need to write pow(x,y), in Fortran x**y. You can find more answers with your favorite search engine. Read this for example: http://www.researchgate.net/post/Why_is_fortran_extensively_used_in_scientific_computing_and_not_any_other_language After that one could argue that Matlab (or language X) is better because bla bla, etc, there are a lot of possible combinations. etc, etc, etc we could talk about that for hours. Back on topic, the point is currently C++ combined with the 3D APIs is a very good combo for gaming development even if C++ could be considered an old language, because in that case it's the right tool for the job. Also if we consider the gaming engines that are considered "top of the line" (i.e. the ones used in new AAA fancy games), maybe they're not suited for ED's need in terms of flight sim so they need to develop their own engine. Everything is a compromise in software industry (just as in sobek's sig: cheap, good, fast, pick two)... Edited June 20, 2015 by PiedDroit
Psyrixx Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 EDGE is a band aid. It is the equivalent of having a Porche and purchasing an after market cruise control system. It works but isn't as good as updating the software to a better computer language, on par with other programs often discussed here such as ARMA. and the like. Edge is simply a program that will put DCS into a box (program) that is capable of running "some" of the modern graphics enhancements. It isn't capable of running all of them at there best. For what this software does it will be an improvement. The issue will become how do we proceed once it is also surpassed by new technology. Hopefully the "Band aid" will allow time to rewrite the software using a modern programming language capable of running in an environment equal to the modern CPU and GPU Technology. I can't recall the college name at present but there is work being done that will allow a programmer to insert his older software into a "Converter" (if you will) this program will update the software to the latest and greatest programming language. Let's hope it is finished not long after Edge hits the market. LOL :doh: :lol::lol::lol::lol: :megalol: :lol::lol::lol::lol: :thumbup: I love it when people who have absolutely no concept come in and try to explain things as if they are experts. Robert Sogomonian | Psyrixx website| e-mail | blog | youtube | twitter
SFJackBauer Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) I wonder if even today's graduates in Computer Science know about basic concepts such as Turing-completeness. Well, actually I don't wonder, since I get to interview some of them and I see first-hand they don't. All languages that are Turing-complete are able to produce the same result on a computer, and all imperative languages which are in use pass this test. Therefore saying that you can do complicated math in C++ but can't in Pascal or C# is utterly absurd. The difference lies just in the speed of execution on a given hardware, speed of implementation, leverage of programmer skills, easy of maintenance, compatibility with existing libraries and other similar "soft" factors (which may be "hard" factors depending on the reality of a given project). Look, for example, at one of the best-seller games on Steam lately, City Skylines. It is implemented in C#, and is able to simulate in real time a lot of complex systems and pathfiding for hundreds of virtual citizens, whilst also having great graphics. Wouldn't be wise to code it all in C++? In C++, it would may be able to simulate even entire countries with hundred millions of citizens, but it would perhaps take another 5 years for its team to code it, they may miss the time-to-market, and wouldn't aggregate any more value to the gameplay than it already does. So please, when comparing languages, use the correct kind of comparison. Edited June 20, 2015 by SFJackBauer
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 I don't think that anybody here argued that a certain algorithm cannot be accomplished with a certain language. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
SFJackBauer Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 I'd say that arguing FORTRAN is better for CFD, or C++ is more "powerful" without qualifying under which aspects it is, may fall under that definition.
sobek Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) I disagree. There's a lack of qualification of what "better" means, but in no way does "for task a, b is better than c" explicitly or implicitly state that you cannot accomplish a with c. :) Edited June 20, 2015 by sobek Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
SFJackBauer Posted June 20, 2015 Posted June 20, 2015 You may disagree, but you are not the only person on this thread. I did not wrote it as an answer to you, but rather as an answer to the overall feeling of what the entire group of people were discussing. I am sure there are some non-technical people reading this who may be benefited by the side-point I brought to the discussion.
Recommended Posts