list of corner speed for DCS world aircraft?

[wolle]

Hi guys,

 

Does anyone know if there is a list that contains the corner speed (and possibly other goodies) for all (or most) DCS world fighters?

 

If so, please provide link:)

 

Thanks:thumbup:

[TheSnark]

What are you looking for, angular momentum, time to make a 180/360 turn, or IAS during a turn?

 

The specific handling of a aircraft is usually visualized in diagrams with specific value's.

[wolle]

What are you looking for, angular momentum, time to make a 180/360 turn, or IAS during a turn?

 

The specific handling of a aircraft is usually visualized in diagrams with specific value's.

 

Essentially I want to know what IAS I have to choose for each aircraft to have the best chance at outturning an opponent. (assuming full tanks, gun ammo, no bombs, no drop tanks). Or even simpler: what needles need to point where to have the best chance to outturn the opponent.

 

Diagrams would be OK (here's to hoping I can understand them;))

[Bushmanni]

For outturning opponents you need three speeds ie. min radius speed, corner speed and best sustained turn speed which all depend on aircraft weight and altitude. The weight induced variance in sustained turn speed is especially important with modern fighters (like F-15).

 

Also with modern fighters you are better off with mach numbers than IAS as sustained turn Mach number is more stable in regards to altitude than IAS.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Bushmanni

[King_Hrothgar]

You've asked a very complicated question, one so complicated it can't be answered in anything less than a few hundred posts. However, to start it helps by knowing what kinds of turns there are.

 

In general, we can break them down into the following categories:

 

1) Maximum sustained turn rate: This is measured in degrees per second and is the fastest you can turn the aircraft without losing energy (altitude + speed).

 

2) Maximum turn rate: This is the absolute fastest rate at which the aircraft can turn in degrees per second without ripping itself apart or departing controlled flight. By its very nature, it is not sustainable as energy is expended rapidly to perform it. It is worth noting that it looks at the turn rate of the aircraft's velocity vector rather than the position the nose is pointed. Nose pointing ability is something else entirely.

 

3) Maximum G load: Once going fast enough, aircraft hit their G limits before their aerodynamic limits. Generally speaking, this is 9G for a jet fighter.

 

4) Minimum turn radius: This is the smallest radius a plane can perform a turn in. Generally speaking, this is a very low speed turn that comes no where near the max G load or maximum turn rate. It really only comes into play when fighting near stall speed.

 

5) Maximum angle of attack (AoA): This is the ability of an aircraft to be flying one direction with its nose pointed elsewhere. Most fighters max out at around 20-30 degrees, but some can do far more, even going so far as to fly backwards (I use the word flying loosely here, really they are just falling while still in control).

Edited July 5, 2015 by King_Hrothgar

[wolle]

Thanks for the answers, really helpful. Think I understand the big picture now:thumbup:

 

Back to my original question. Where can I find all these numbers for the DCS planes? Have they been summarized somewhere, or do I need to dig for them in the manuals. I am afraid I know the answer, I'll have to go dig through the manuals, right?

[Buzzles]

Thanks for the answers, really helpful. Think I understand the big picture now:thumbup:

 

Back to my original question. Where can I find all these numbers for the DCS planes? Have they been summarized somewhere, or do I need to dig for them in the manuals. I am afraid I know the answer, I'll have to go dig through the manuals, right?

 

Yeap, manuals it is.

 

The reason being is that all the figures are plotted out on graphs relating to that aircraft.

[SinusoidDelta]

See page 63 of the below document.

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA320211

[elingeniero]

To all those saying to 'read the manual': You are being very unhelpful and should probably refrain from posting.

 

For a start, the answers to this question are not in the manuals. A much better response would be the actual location of the information in the manuals, or a quote from them. However, because you yourselves haven't read them, you don't know that the answers aren't actually there. The best we get from the SU27 manual is on page 106/107 where we get an EM diagram of a typical modern fighter. Great.

 

Additionally, there is no guarantee that the flight model of DCS aircraft really simulates this aspect accurately so using 'real world' information probably isn't that good either. Finally, maintaining a constant speed in a dogfight is pretty tricky so precise numbers aren't terribly useful anyway.

 

The numbers that I use for the max-energy high-rate-of-turn 'corner speed' are 650-750km/h in the SU27 or 375-425kts with the F15. YMMV.

Edited July 6, 2015 by elingeniero

[GGTharos]

I don't know about the Su-27, but I'm fairly certain that's too high for corner, and 450-500kts is absolutely, definitely too high for the F-15. You don't get anything resembling 'high rate of turn', you get 'less than maximum' STR limited by g and a gigantic turn circle. You may legitimately want to be at this speed, but it's not corner.

 

The fact is that corner speed depends on many factors, and yes, read the RL manuals if you can get them because they'll tell you what's what, and yes, the FM programmers do their best to match the in-game FM to the real performance.

 

As for EM diagrams ... nothing is stopping you from creating your own. All it takes is time and discipline :)

 

The numbers that I use for the max-energy high-rate-of-turn 'corner speed' are 800-900km/h in the SU27 or 450-500kts with the F15. YMMV.

[elingeniero]

Yes I thought that they seemed high when I posted so I did a quick search and have edited my reply :).

 

The point is that a precise number isn't useful, and even less useful is people saying 'read the manual'... Get a few opinions and try them out instead.

Edited July 6, 2015 by elingeniero

[GGTharos]

I would go 350-420 with the F-15, you can still turn well at 350 and have a lot of margin to 'burn speed', but it's 'minimum corner' ... use it when light and keep in mind if you're heavy(er), 350 is basically the min speed you can reasonably accelerate out of.

 

When light though it gives you gives you excellent turn rate and turn radius capability. Be faster only if you intend to employ a lot of vertical (eg. up to 400kts). Again, only when the gross weight is light - and, I'm thinking of sea level but should be valid up to 10000 or so.

 

Regarding precise numbers not being useful: Yes they are, but within some context. For the vast, vast majority of virtual pilots, it's most useful to understand that corner speed is a range ... next step is to understand what happens within this range based mainly on aircraft gross weight and then altitude etc. The step after that is to understand that you can use it in many ways. There is room for using STR and ITR in there :)

Edited July 6, 2015 by GGTharos

[SinusoidDelta]

To all those saying to 'read the manual': You are being very unhelpful and should probably refrain from posting.

 

 

 

For a start, the answers to this question are not in the manuals. A much better response would be the actual location of the information in the manuals, or a quote from them. However, because you yourselves haven't read them, you don't know that the answers aren't actually there. The best we get from the SU27 manual is on page 106/107 where we get an EM diagram of a typical modern fighter. Great.

 

Additionally, there is no guarantee that the flight model of DCS aircraft really simulates this aspect accurately so using 'real world' information probably isn't that good either. Finally, maintaining a constant speed in a dogfight is pretty tricky so precise numbers aren't terribly useful anyway.

 

The numbers that I use for the max-energy high-rate-of-turn 'corner speed' are 650-750km/h in the SU27 or 375-425kts with the F15. YMMV.

 

I think the issue is a misunderstanding of what corner speed is; it is not a static airspeed. Saying "maximum energy point" is misleading with regards to EM theory as the energy height actually dips negative at corner. It is an intersection that where turn rate goes to maximum and turn radius goes to minimum on a constant altitude path. If you would look at the document I referenced you would see a concise explanation using actual F-15 performance data.

 

From this example, the following points concerning sustained turns can be noted: 1-Mn^occursbetween0.87and0.96Mach(maximumsustainedloadfactorequals

7.33 g)

2. M_ occurs at 0.87 Mach (maximum sustained turn rate equals 13.0 deg/sec).

HMUC

3. Mr, occurs at 0.34 Mach (minimum sustained turn radius of 2200 feet). "min

 

In Addition,the turn rate-radius versus Mach plot shows the maneuver "corner"point. It is denned as the wmi«mm speed at which the maximum aircraft load factor (n) can be achieved. On the V-n diagram (Figure 9.29) it is located at the intersection of the lift boundary (line A) and structural limit boundary (line B). In Figure 9.35, it occurs at the intersection of the max lift line and the maximum load factor line. In this case, the corner point is at 0.55 Mach, pulling 7.33g and achieving approximately 23 deg/sec turn rate. Notice that this equates to a P. value of less than -2000 ft/sec. To the pilot this means a loss of Mach at constant altitude pr a loss of altitude at constant Mach to hold 7.33g. Hence this is often noted as the mayiirmm instantaneous turn capability of the aircraft and the term

"quietest, tightest turn" is used in the fighter community to describe the aircraft performance at that point.

By «"^mining the P, = 0 plot in Figure 9.35, it can be seen that for each level of load factor there are two Mach values where the aircraft can stabilize. This may be better visualized

byanalyzingFigure9.36,whichshowsthatbyincreasing -^ foragiven,thespeedat

which these stable points occur come closer together. And, at some point, there is a load factor that can be sustained at only one speed.

 

I'm not implying this data will match DCS performance data. The theory needs to be understood first.

Edited July 6, 2015 by SinusoidDelta

[elingeniero]

I read that document. I liked it. M0.55 @ 10,000ft is 350kts.

 

What numbers do you use?

[wolle]

Hi guys,

 

I mostly fly the Sabre and Mig-15. Has anyone found corner speeds or diagrams for them?

 

Thanks:thumbup:

[Buzzles]

Hi guys,

 

I mostly fly the Sabre and Mig-15. Has anyone found corner speeds or diagrams for them?

 

Thanks:thumbup:

 

Go here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=139690

 

It's a great thread on Mig-15 vs F-86, including the diagrams you are after, page 8 is the best for that info, especially the cleaned up chart from a Japanese forum. I know you want IAS speeds, but you'll just have to use the graph, get your height and mach number and work out IAS from there.

 

The moderate complexity of the diagrams are the reason why people have been saying go find the manuals (the real flight manuals) as there's not just one magic number.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Buzzles

[Igor4U]

Here is anothert piece of the (turning) performance puzzle.

Energy Maneuverability Diagrams (my understanding - can't confirm) were created along with F-16 development as a way the engineers came up with to depict aircraft performance in terms of energy (sustainment). Each Chart is for a specific aircraft, weight, configuration / drag-index, altitude, etc..... Pilots use these charts to compare their strength and weaknesses against dissimilar aircraft and hope to keep their parameter where they have an advantage.

 

- Where Ps is Positive, the Aircratf is gaining energy (can be turned into either altitude gain or velocity increase, or a combination of both)

 

- Where Ps = 0: The Aircraft is maintaining its Energy State

 

- Where Ps is Negative, the Aircraft is losing energy (either bleeding airspeed or altitude, or both)

 

Turn Rates and Turn Radius are easily read from these Charts.

Ps = 0 will provide an aircraft's sustained turning performance.

 

 

Energy-Maneuverability Diagrams

http://www.combatsim.com/review.php?id=133

[blueskunk]

this won't answer the op question but here's a turn performance graph for the su27. i can't recall where i got it from.

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=13yqgr6&s=8#.VZzbaPl0lmE

 

my understanding is this:

 

according to the graph (given weight, altitude of the plane) the su27 will:

 

 

• perform the fastest turn on 8g's at approx 670 km/h (not sustainable)
  
• perform sustainable 6g turn at approx 620 km/h (green line)
  

for my own (!) practical purposes, during a dogfight i try to keep my speed somwhere between 600-750 km/h no matter what weight/altitude i'm at. i will only pull a tighter turn when i'm seeing a good opportunity for a killshot because afterwards, when my speed has dropped below that margin it takes a while to regain it.

 

 

 

i'm not entirely sure if my interpretation of the graph or my approach is correct, so any advice is appreciated.

 

 

as for other planes, i assume similar graphs for other planes can be found with some googling but since i mainly fly the su27 i can't tell for sure.

 

as for the manuals, i'd certainly appreciate if this data would be included.

 

cheers

 

edit:

ironhand's video on corner speed:

 

at 13:15 he talks about corner speed for su27 being 520-710 km/h IAS and 330-430 kts IAS for the f15.

Edited July 8, 2015 by blueskunk

[Esac_mirmidon]

A couple of diagrams Su-27 vs F-15A F-16A Tornado ADV. SU-27 payload: 2x R-73 2x R-27. F-16A 4x AIM-9. F-15A 4x AIM-9. Tornado ADV 4x Skyflash 2X Sidewinder

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[WildBillKelsoe]

you can do it yourself. TACVIEW is your friend (with excel of course)