New model

[xoxen]

I wonder if people would say all this to each other if they would stand vis-a-vis. Critic is good as long as it is constructive. It´s not what you say but how you say it. I can fully understand what Chris says. At the end we will not see any updates anymore and we should not wonder about it.

I always loved the Eurofighter and will be happy to drive it through the DCS skys.

Xoxen

[Spectre11]

I would say "excellent" @Mr. Burns. :-D

My viewpoint pretty much concurs. At the end of the day we spent most of the time in the cockpit. And as long as people recognize the renders for what they are, WIP, everything is fine. Don't get too discouraged, there are always critics and some shoot above the target, some want to be constructive, while some simply do it as they need something to moan about.

[NineLine]

Yes but then there's no point complaining when there's criticism when you have the option to stop it in the first place ;)

 

Good point, I'll ask Wags to make the forums read only ;)

 

No one is really complaining about criticism, constructive criticism is very much welcome, you can see it all over the forums. But this is a preview image, a render, not even in the game engine yet. Its too early to give feedback, instead stop stressing and enjoy the sneak peek. Chris and all are a smart bunch, when its time for feedback, they will take it all in.

[Numien]

I do agree that the perspective confusing things is the real problem. We're used to looking at pictures of jets shot at a distance through a zoom lens. However, the preview image looks like the renders are from pretty close-up with a wide-angle lens -- it shows on the "below" shot, both the nose and tail look stretched, and in the "front" shot the nose is huge compared to the wing tips. It's not obvious since they're composited together against a "sky" like that, but definitely seems to be there.

 

So I guess if anything, my constructive criticism is that future preview renders should probably be shot with a virtual zoom lens to make them look more realistic. ;)

Edited July 18, 2015 by Numien

[Wizard_03]

It's frustrating as a forum user to, after waiting patiently for the dev to show some WIP pics, see it immediately criticized and badgered to no end. It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident but check the hawk and P-40 forums and you can see why they get so upset, people beg for WIPs and then just complain when its not what they are expecting, all aside from the fact that everything here has WIP written all over it. I think it makes devs less likely to want to show their work when people just hate on it.

 

I am not a typhoon driver or a professional 3D modeler. But just common sense tells me that since they actually have contracts and agreements from the RAF, it's probably going to be as close to the real thing as one can hope for regardless of the perceived inaccuracies on some thumbnail picture. I understand criticism but people go way too far and don't even thank the dev and demand their rights on something they have not even spent money on yet.

[Mr_Burns]

I do agree that the perspective confusing things is the real problem. We're used to looking at pictures of jets shot at a distance through a zoom lens. However, the preview image looks like the renders are from pretty close-up with a wide-angle lens -- it shows on the "below" shot, both the nose and tail look stretched, and in the "front" shot the nose is huge compared to the wing tips. It's not obvious since they're composited together against a "sky" like that, but definitely seems to be there.

 

So I guess if anything, my constructive criticism is that future preview renders should probably be shot with a virtual zoom lens to make them look more realistic. ;)

 

Yeah well my rendered Meteor is locking up John X as we speak, armed with a war tip of manners.

[john_X]

@ Mr_Burns, i take it as a joke, which i hope it is, to stop the contradictions

[Python]

Looks good Chris, thank you for the glimpse. Can't wait to be sitting in this thing and lighting the burners...

[Pman]

...all aside from the fact that everything here has WIP written all over it. I think it makes devs less likely to want to show their work when people just hate on it.

...

 

This

 

Pman

[Paganus]

Thanks for the WiP pics guys.

 

I hope you can keep sharing them with us.

[SilentGun]

Thanks for the WiP pics guys.

 

 

 

I hope you can keep sharing them with us.

 

 

My words exactly, especially the last part...

[Harry.R]

I wasn't hating on anyone's hard work, the model looks great, it's just that the render has a few areas that some have already pointed out, where it 'differs' from the actual jet. And no, I'm not going to put up a picture proving how I think I know this either ;) Look, opinions are just that, everyone has one but not all will agree. BTW I'm really looking forward to the Sea Fury, Meteor and Vampire.

[Looney]

I love the WIP reports, it shows dedication, hard work and passion for the product they're making. Again, it's work in progress and nothing more, everything is subject to change and so on.

 

In my opinion, if you want to point VEAO on errors or faults in their sim, drop an email with a beta team request together with why you should be in there.

[Tirak]

I got to say, I'm a little confused at the hostility shown towards john_x. English isn't his first language and he was blunt, but given that he's got a background in this sort of thing and provided pretty concise reasoning to why he sees problems, a little slack for a language barrier seems to be in order.

 

Instead, we've got one guy joking about shooting him, and, some rather... unprofessional behavior from a dev. Maybe I'm just not used to the way things go in the VEAO section... but given that one model was scrapped already, doesn't it seem a little out of line to go ballistic on someone who's trying to make sure you don't have to scrap another? Problems are after all most easily corrected early in the process. Even if he's completely wrong, or jumping the gun on wip renders, isn't there a better response than the way the last couple of pages have been? Sorry if I'm stepping on some politics here, but wow, past couple of pages have left an awful taste in my mouth.

[Ells228]

Guys,

Let's just drop the hate messages please. I'm sure the mods and Sith have better things to do than clearing up the thread.

 

As I've said before we do appreciate feedback and we listen to every view whether we disagree with it or not.

 

We did not "scrap" one model. We felt that given DCS2 will give us greater capabilities it was better to create a new model using those capabilities as I've said before.

 

Thanks,

Chris.

[john_X]

@ Tirak, i totally agree with you. One more thing it should be known, once a 3D model is set(the modelling part) and the crew starts to map and texture it, no one will go back to modify shape errors, because is too difficult and would be needed to start it from scratch. That's why is so hard to correct shape errors after you mapped and textured it and only a 3D artist knows that, and that's why i was maybe a little harsh, because it seemed to me(from the renders) that the next step was to map and texture it, so there was the last chance to do some modifications.

 

About the hostility they show to me, i don't mind hostility from guys like Mr_Burns, he is outside the 3D world, he doesn't know the inside things and who knows, maybe he is a kiddo who didn't even have job, a place where you can find the "best of the criticism". At my first job, my boss almost "destroyed" all my work, and i found the most agressive critics in my life, that's the place where i learned to forget my ego.

 

Who i am dissapointed, is the reactions of VEAO, who supposed to be proffesional. They didn't take it well and i don't think that's the ideal comunication with a costumer. I was trying to give my help, as i did with another module developer(the best i'd say), that had a totally opposite reaction than VEAO's. Although i'm not part of a dev i helped not only by criticising(which didn't upset them) but giving a 3D model of mine for a little part of a fuselage. This is how i see things and how i believe it should be normal.

[Charly_Owl]

@ Tirak, i totally agree with you. One more thing it should be known, once a 3D model is set(the modelling part) and the crew starts to map and texture it, no one will go back to modify shape errors, because is too difficult and would be needed to start it from scratch. That's why is so hard to correct shape errors after you mapped and textured it and only a 3D artist knows that, and that's why i was maybe a little harsh, because it seemed to me(from the renders) that the next step was to map and texture it, so there was the last chance to do some modifications.

 

About the hostility they show to me, i don't mind hostility from guys like Mr_Burns, he is outside the 3D world, he doesn't know the inside things and who knows, maybe he is a kiddo who didn't even have job, a place where you can find the "best of the criticism". At my first job, my boss almost "destroyed" all my work, and i found the most agressive critics in my life, that's the place where i learned to forget my ego.

 

Who i am dissapointed, is the reactions of VEAO, who supposed to be proffesional. They didn't take it well and i don't think that's the ideal comunication with a costumer. I was trying to give my help, as i did with another module developer(the best i'd say), that had a totally opposite reaction than VEAO's. Although i'm not part of a dev i helped not only by criticising(which didn't upset them) but giving a 3D model of mine for a little part of a fuselage. This is how i see things and how i believe it should be normal.

 

Calling a dev "unprofessional" is not gonna get you very far.

 

If you want to make a point, don't draw lines on paint. Instead, provide accurate measurements and quantify the discrepancies between real-life measurements and the ones in the render.

 

A potential customer should treat ANY developer with a modicum of respect and professionalism if he intends to be treated by the same standards. Like a (rather foul mouthed) test pilot often said at work: "Being rude doesn't make you wrong, but being nice doesn't cost you anything and might actually get the issue fixed."

Edited July 20, 2015 by Charly_Owl

[NineLine]

Am I really going to have to lock this thread? Are you guys really going to make me lock a thread that is just a simple WIP screenshot. I am be big fan of DCS and high quality work, but lets all get a hold of ourselves here.

 

If you have something further to add, to help VEAO out with their modelling, please do it by PM.

 

If the same issues are brought up, over and over, it will be a rule violation. Warning points will be given, this goes for both sides of the argument here.

 

If you cant post without swearing or using poor language, you will get warning points.

 

Please behave, this thread shouldnt be this heated. Passion is one thing, this is just silliness at this point.

[Ells228]

As I've said before we do appreciate feedback and we listen to every view whether we disagree with it or not.

 

Thanks,

Chris.

 

JohnX, I'm simply going to quote myself again as I'm guessing you didn't see it.

 

Please email me ells@veaosimulations.co.uk if you'd like to add value to what we're doing.

[Düsentriebdaniel]

Nice shots!

 

Really looking forward for the Typhoon : )

 

(I'll never fly another aircraft :P)

[Rangi]

Nice shots!

 

Really looking forward for the Typhoon : )

 

(I'll never fly another aircraft :P)

Quite likely I won't either, but I will still buy more modules to support this dev team....

Edited July 20, 2015 by Rangi
autocorrect ridiculousness

[Python]

past couple of pages have left an awful taste in my mouth.

 

 

Mine too for different reasons, and while Chris and Pman are adults and need no defending from me. I feel the need to say that their communication with the customer base has been a breath of fresh air and I greatly appreciate it! Long may it continue. Also, having spoken to Chris behind the scenes while testing the Hawk, he always came across as a decent guy, so throwing insults such as "unprofessional" is really unfair given the context. If you worked all day, then did this in all of your free time only to be shot down in a not to polite manner, you'd probably not be completely happy either. We're all human. So I'm sure VEAO will take on board any feedback and work on it. But honestly, the angles we are seeing here aren't really the best to judge the over all model anyway, it's just a glimpse of a WIP model. VEAO have made DCS way more exciting than it was not too long ago with their incredible road map, lets try and work with them in a constructive manner to make that long term dream a reality. Turning threads like this into a spat helps nobody. The Hawk is awesome, I expect the Typhoon to be even better and I'm sure it will be.. :thumbup:

[NineLine]

Ok guys, I am sure the boys appreciate the touchy feely stuff, but lets try and get the thread back on topic, discuss the WIP image in the OP.

[SilentGun]

Soo who else wants to see the cockpit :D

[QuiGon]

Soo who else wants to see the cockpit :D

 

Bloody yes, can't wait any more to see it. :joystick:

Pls gimme! :D