Why are you all flying so low?

[Frostie]

Mp can be a very singular activity, in the real world flying and gaining AS is done by several fighters working together. In DCS there is no reason to care for your virtual life so risking getting killed in close and low is par the fun. In the real world flying high gives you the picture and authority to control the airspace whilst in DCS everyone just wants to make kills and by flying low they're increasing that likelyhood without having to worry about winning air superiority all by themselves.

[FLANKERATOR]

Flying low tend to make people somehow feel safer as opposed to 'feeling naked' in the middle of the sky; well that's how you'd feel until you understand that speed (not the weeds) is life.

 

By flying low you deny yourself potential energy (altitude) so youve got nothing to trade for speed when things get hairy, plus those who are good at scanning with the radar from above will find you and pretend they don't see you until too late for you. And say you dodge the first salvo of missiles, it will be a matter of seconds before they dive on you, outrun and kill you.

[refugee]

Flying low tend to make people somehow feel safer as opposed to 'feeling naked' in the middle of the sky; well that's how you'd feel until you understand that speed (not the weeds) is life.

 

By flying low you deny yourself potential energy (altitude) so youve got nothing to trade for speed when things get hairy, plus those who are good at scanning with the radar from above will find you and pretend they don't see you until too late for you. And say you dodge the first salvo of missiles, it will be a matter of seconds before they dive on you, outrun and kill you.

 

So true :)

[104th_Maverick]

I always try to start the fight high , we bash this into our Cadets over and over again.

 

Strictly speaking there is nothing wrong with flying low, however statistically it is more of an advantage to fly higher as Flankerator pointed out.

 

Against good opponents who are not killed on the first pass the fight then evolves down to lower altitudes but ideally I want to be killing people on the first pass from 26,000ft.

 

Some pilots are great at making low level flying work especially in the F-15C, there is no doubt about this!

 

The danger is when you get caught by an enemy in another F-15C who is at altitude and knows what they are doing.... they are going to catch you, run you down and kill you.

 

Providing fuel is good for both sides, a Low F-15C cannot outrun a High F-15C.

[DieHard]

It's not a damn lawn mower

 

Come on, come high up in the sky!

You know how boring it is to chase down F15's that are affraid to fly any higher than 50 feet above ground level?:noexpression:

 

It's getting a bit boring now.

When I climb up to 30k feet and beyond it's almost impossible to get a lock, and in order to get a nice fight I need to join the lawn mowing superclan because I can't obtain a lock from all the way up there.

 

Your F15/SU-27/SU-33/Mig-29 won't fall apart when you fly any higher than 10000 feet, the aircraft is even designed to do so!:smilewink:

The average A-10 flies higher!

 

Now come on, I want to fight at some altitude.

Constantly mowing over the mountains just because no F15 dares to fly higher is boring.

 

Just do it, don't let your dreams be dreams :thumbup:

 

I have encountered this same mindset in other air combat sims, go figure.

 

Better to find a squad with similar goals, organized fights, even consider all fighters in an air start at altitude.

 

devilman's maddog squad is looking for new guys.

Edited September 25, 2015 by DieHard

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

ya I really don't see the complaining here, if they are flying low you have all the advantage on them, just don't let them sneak in under your radar, any missile that is fired on them is gonna have a lot longer range then their return shot.

 

flying high and slow is bad, flying high and fast is not.

 

if you let someone get in range and your high up then your basically killing yourself, that however doesn't mean that you should never be up high.

 

fuel economy is most certainly one of the most important and often used aspect of flying high, and so those flying low are gonna have shorter sorties, which means giving up earlier, which means they aren't doing a good job of controlling the sky.

 

if you're in an eagle at a low altitude you kinda just are bad at the game. that's not to say that there isn't a time and place for it but simply that if your cruising at low altitude it'd be like taking a su-25 to space. non-sense.

 

furthermore the eagle has an RCS the size of a brick house, you ain't hiding anywhere anytime soon, better turn on your jammer and obscure distance.

[Frostie]

It's all relative to the situation, if you're high against some using terrain to deny your shots then getting closer to them allowing an auto acquisition on you and ARH your way you are going to get low one way or another be it defensive or taking the missile in the face. Once you've gone low in the mountains in a bandit dense area getting back up can be a recipe for making yourself an easy target. It's a fine line between being effective at killing or just being effective at controlling airspace.

[pyromaniac4002]

There's nothing wrong with some high flying on the way in or out, but once you get to the combat part you're going to want to get down to the deck quick. I mean, if you want to live that's what you need to do.

 

You can attempt a high, fast high-energy shot to begin with, but if you stay at altitude the baddie is going to trash your missiles in no time in the draggy air and then take a shot at you that outranges your own missiles by about 10 miles. Plus you won't be able to turn effectively above 26,000 feet. So even if you don't die, you're stuck in a defensive situation that you can't get out of until you burn half your fuel extending or a friendly comes along to give the baddie a reason to stop chasing you.

[Nick444]

The manual says higher elevation increases missile range. Is that practical in-game?

[Shaman]

It's not a damn lawn mower

 

Come on, come high up in the sky!

You know how boring it is to chase down F15's that are affraid to fly any higher than 50 feet above ground level?:noexpression:

 

It's getting a bit boring now.

 

Turn on BIRDS STRIKE back on the server ^^ and add low level turbulence

[Shaman]

The manual says higher elevation increases missile range. Is that practical in-game?

 

Yes it is, you can add energy to your missile by gaining altitude and speed.

[FLANKERATOR]

The manual says higher elevation increases missile range. Is that practical in-game?

 

 

It is but it depends on how long the missile flies high, so the further you are from your target the more range bonus you will get from altitude.

 

As Pyromaniac pointed out, shooting in a significant look down scenario from close range would actually give your missile shorter legs as forced to dive quickly into the low draggy air, slowing down at an alarming rate as opposed to your foe whose missile although departing low would be getting to higher thinner air quickly thus loosing less speed; it all comes down to how far you are when opening fire, the further the better but as you get close past the threshold, you'd better get down low to deny him a look up shot then proceed with your next move whether it be defensive or offensive.

[Coxy_99]

Nothing wrong in terrain masking if i have to go defensive :smartass:

[SinusoidDelta]

It is but it depends on how long the missile flies high, so the further you are from your target the more range bonus you will get from altitude.

 

As Pyromaniac pointed out, shooting in a significant look down scenario from close range would actually give your missile shorter legs as forced to dive quickly into the low draggy air, slowing down at an alarming rate as opposed to your foe whose missile although departing low would be getting to higher thinner air quickly thus loosing less speed; it all comes down to how far you are when opening fire, the further the better but as you get close past the threshold, you'd better get down low to deny him a look up shot then proceed with your next move whether it be defensive or offensive.

The F-15 at least was designed for look down scenarios. Depending on altitude and launch velocity, Max velocity of the missile will be higher. Rate of deceleration actually decreases as Mach number increases.

[xaoslaad]

It's actually a tried and true tactic to go low to mess with the enemies radar.

 

That's exactly what the tomcat pilots did in the F-14 - Libyan MiG-23 engagement. At one point they went from angels 9 to 3, then peaked up to 5. When it was over, in so far as I understand it, they headed north ducking out low.

 

No engaging at 10 or 20 or 40k...

 

https://youtu.be/sAHHXAIazqQ

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

ya I'm not ever saying that low has no place, being low is good for being sneaky but kills fuel fast, on the upside you have a chance to evade detection. also food for thought but being low in some mountains is kinda still high :P so if people are fighting around mountains in the middle there its probably still pretty good fuel consumption while being "low"... at this point though feels like we are beating a dead horse till it blue. ;)

[Svend_Dellepude]

It's actually a tried and true tactic to go low to mess with the enemies radar.

 

That's exactly what the tomcat pilots did in the F-14 - Libyan MiG-23 engagement. At one point they went from angels 9 to 3, then peaked up to 5. When it was over, in so far as I understand it, they headed north ducking out low.

 

No engaging at 10 or 20 or 40k...

 

https://youtu.be/sAHHXAIazqQ

 

Since the MiG-23 had limited lookdown capabilities, and shorter ranged missiles, being lower makes good sense.

 

Bugging out at low altitude always makes sense as the enemy will have a much smaller chance of detecting you on radar.

Cold and low is not really a radar's favorite course.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Svend_Dellepude

[winchesterdelta1]

I never understand the people that start low. Unless you are trying to sneak all the way in and around. I always fly around 22,000ft. So i can have good SA and people that are low can't hide easily from me and trash my lock. Especially new people should not start low. I try to tell them when they ask me why i see so many bandits and they don't. And also as Flankerator said.. You can act like you don't see that sneaky player coming up to you. Until it's to late for him.

But there should be some caution with flying at these altitudes. Don't be to much in afterburner against Flankers and Migs. They will see you and the good ones will flank you to fire that ET.

Most of the time i come in at medium altitude, fire my missile. Slice back and run low altitude. When save and not much bandits around i climb back up to around angels 15 /20. If not i will turn back in staying low to catch the other low people that did not build any SA in the beginning of the fight still thinking they are fighting 1 or 2 bandits.

[BSS_Sniper]

Flying high makes it stupidly harder to dodge missiles, and maneuvering becomes more sluggish.

 

There is no reason to fly high. There are only SOME scenarios where flying really high will help.

 

Ultimately everybody has a lot more fun flying low, and hiding, then popping up close to a target in hopes of a merge and then it's a knife fight in a phone booth.

 

 

But hey, if you want to fly high and be a target for the world to see and shoot at, be our guest, we would love to kill you.

 

The rest of us will stay wherever we damn please, thank you very much.

 

This is where a sim that is supposed to simulate RL turns into a game. Fighters on deployment that are on mission aren't flying in the weeds, except here. It's gamer mentality.

[Frostie]

This is where a sim that is supposed to simulate RL turns into a game. Fighters on deployment that are on mission aren't flying in the weeds, except here. It's gamer mentality.

 

Which fighters on deployment? Those having total air superiority over Libya and the Middle east, different horses for different courses, you can't compare what happens in modern day warfare with what happens in a dreamt up scenario. Try looking at tactics used where the opponent had the ability to more than match and defend itself against attack eg. the Falklands.

[SDsc0rch]

Since the MiG-23 had limited lookdown capabilities, and shorter ranged missiles, being lower makes good sense.

 

...

 

except when you figure in radars don't work as well at low altitude.......

: /

[SinusoidDelta]

Which fighters on deployment? Those having total air superiority over Libya and the Middle east, different horses for different courses, you can't compare what happens in modern day warfare with what happens in a dreamt up scenario. Try looking at tactics used where the opponent had the ability to more than match and defend itself against attack eg. the Falklands.

 

I think we are making a mistake comparing most RL conflicts to the bum-rush for bullseye we see in multiplayer in DCS World. A large amount of the advice posted here contradicts the fundamentals of fighter combat maneuvering, such as plummeting to the deck once the fight starts. I don't think these conceptions arose from how our aircraft and missile systems are modeled as much as how our MP conflicts are staged. What parameters you choose to put your aircraft in is not black and white such as flying high or low.

[PondLife]

Which fighters on deployment? Those having total air superiority over Libya and the Middle east, different horses for different courses, you can't compare what happens in modern day warfare with what happens in a dreamt up scenario. Try looking at tactics used where the opponent had the ability to more than match and defend itself against attack eg. the Falklands.

 

The Falklands is not a particularly relevant example of a modern air war...The harriers were limited to AIM 9L's and were more maneuverable at low level (below 10,000ft) than their counterparts. To my knowlege there really is no example, the closest we came in recent history was Korea. DCS is based on an imaginary encounter between east and west that thank god has never happened. I'm sure if it did happen A2A doctrine would change to reflect the results of actual encounters, perhaps these online "games" of ours are being watched with interest....;)

[SinusoidDelta]

The Falklands is not a particularly relevant example of a modern air war...The harriers were limited to AIM 9L's and were more maneuverable at low level (below 10,000ft) than their counterparts. To my knowlege there really is no example, the closest we came in recent history was Korea. DCS is based on an imaginary encounter between east and west that thank god has never happened. I'm sure if it did happen A2A doctrine would change to reflect the results of actual encounters, perhaps these online "games" of ours are being watched with interest....;)

 

Have you forgotten entirely about the Gulf War?

[WildBillKelsoe]

most of the 'low flying' people might actually be enjoying the scenery....

 

Anyhow, lets see the new smoke effects and decide if we all should continue flying high or low.... I'd love to see missiles from afar to counteract.