M2000 vs Mig-21

[LuSi_6]

Hi folks,

 

I was just wondering how the 21 compares to the M2000.

 

In my eyes they're very similar. Short range interceptors, short range radar, 4 pylons and a gun. No questions that the M2000 has better avionics and better missiles.

But I read that the M2000 is a quite bad turner, good roll rate though.

I wonder if a clean Mig(only one R60 at pylon 1&2) is faster due to very nice thrust to weigh ratio. In addition, turn should be almost equal or in favor of the Mig?

 

anyway, can't wait for release

[Paradox]

I'm looking forward to testing it but my understanding is that the Mirage 2000 should be superiour in basically every respect to the MiG-21Bis.

 

As I say. I'm looking forward to testing it!

[mattebubben]

Im guessing we are only talking about Mobillity.

 

Since in combat terms there is no comparison since the Mirage is 25 years later with a very effective radar and good missiles.

 

And the Mirage 2000 is in no way a bad turner.

 

It has a very good instantanious turn but bleeds speed quickly.

 

The mirage is heavier but has a better top speed (Mach 2.2 vs Mach 2.05 of the mig-21) and a significantly stronger engine (around 30% more thrust then the Mig-21)

 

Together with the mirage 2000 having Flyby wire ensures that its far superior in mobillity and in a guns only dogfight the Mig-21 would not have much of a chance

 

The Mirage 2000 is a close match to the Mig-29 or F-16

 

Its leagues ahead of the mig-21Bis

 

The Mirage III is comparable to the Mig-21.

 

 

The Mig-21 would be as bad off against a Mirage 2000c or even worse then it would be against a F-15,Su-27 or Mig-29

Edited September 28, 2015 by mattebubben

[LuSi_6]

ah ok. German wiki (I know wiki is not the Best source) it says that minimum turn radius is quite large, acceleration quite slow and best turn rate (I guess not instantaneous turn) is 14deg/sec maximum.

 

That's why I thought it should be similar to the Mig. Btw, reading wiki it looks like far away from F-16 and no way a match for the Mig-29 in WVR?

[shaDe55]

^ you've read the wiki witnessed it had wrong information then go quote more info from said wiki? Don't use wiki for your information.

[boulling]

Just see yourself:

[sedenion]

Don't know why everybody wants to compare Mirage 2000 with Mig-21... maybe because it's a french aircraft...

 

The Mirage 2000 C-RDI (the module's version) should be compared with F16-A/B and Mig-29A. It's written and repeated everywhere in this sub-forum...

[didilman]

Don't know why everybody wants to compare Mirage 2000 with Mig-21... maybe because it's a french aircraft...

 

The Mirage 2000 C-RDI (the module's version) should be compared with F16-A/B and Mig-29A. It's written and repeated everywhere in this sub-forum...

 

 

+1

I dont understand why people keep comparing them.

M2000 shouldbe compared to Gripen , F-16 and Mig-29.

Mig-21 to F-4/F-5 , Mirage III and Draken.

[adese]

I think the comparison gets brought up because it's a single engine delta wing craft.

 

A real fun comparison is the M2000/Rafale/Eurofighter/Grippen one.

[Brisse]

I think the comparison gets brought up because it's a single engine delta wing craft.

 

A real fun comparison is the M2000/Rafale/Eurofighter/Grippen one.

 

M2000 is a bit older than Rafale, EF and Gripen. It's probably a bit unfair to compare M2000 to these three, but on the other hand it is much more modern than the MiG-21bis.

[didilman]

Be careful M2000-9 is a monster that manhandled the rafale in BVR.

According some same about F-16 and Gripen I dont say M2000 is better but it give them a hard time in some situations.

[Zomba]

I think the comparisons are partly because they are the only high fidelity fast jets for now. Also I suspect a lot of the more experienced Mig drivers are very interested in the Mirage, not only to fly themselves, but also to fly against. It's easier to gauge an aircraft's capability when comparing it to another, even when that other aircraft has a different level of capability. We have endless discussions comparing the Mig-21 to the F-15C because that is one of the aircraft we have to contend with online. I've noticed some people take offence to that for some reason (not in this thread) and can get very argumentative about it, yet despite their protests, at the end of the day we still have to fight against F-15s (and soon Mirages!) whether we like it or not, and to be successful you have to be very familiar with their capability.

 

Everyone loves to point out how hopelessly outclassed the Mig is and technically they are correct, yet the Mig-21 can still rack up impressive kill counts against far superior foe. So why do they seemingly do better than one might guess? Mig pilots love to do their homework first and are well aware that their aircraft doesn't dominate on a technical level, so instead we concentrate on exploiting vulnerabilities and ensuring the Mig-21 is being driven to the max of it's ability. So it's pretty understandable why the Mirage is getting so much interest from us; we have to fly against this awesome little aircraft and the more we know about it the better!

[adese]

M2000 is a bit older than Rafale, EF and Gripen. It's probably a bit unfair to compare M2000 to these three, but on the other hand it is much more modern than the MiG-21bis.

 

That is quite true. However going a bit further, the real question becomes, how do all these aircraft stack up to the acceleration and handling of the P-996 LAZER in GTA V? :pilotfly: :lol:

 

[mattebubben]

the M2000C should not really be compared to the Gripen but more against the Ja-37 Viggen if you want a swedish fighter (Fighter Viggen enterd service in 79 with an upgrade in the 90s allowing to Aim120s etc)

 

If you want to compare a Mirage with more modern aircraft like the Gripen Rafael / Eurofighter you need to take one of the latest mirage variants like the 2000-5 or 2000-9.

 

Then it would atleast be closer in capabilities.

[Zomba]

What were the Viggens like in agility? I know next to nothing about them.

[LuSi_6]

I compared them because a) I do have the Mig and I love it and b) they follow the same idea as an interceptor (see first post) it's a very similar layout. Nobody talks about avionics for sure. Multiplayer performance should be equal to the Mig, just a bit easier. M2000 can't compete with FC3 Eagle and Aim120. So, stay low and ambush tactics I guess

[howie87]

The negative stability and fly-by-wire controls of the M2000 will give it a huge advantage. Not to mention the extra 5000 lbs of thrust, superior radar and improved cockpit ergonomics.

 

The MiG-21 was never supposed to be an air superiority fighter. It was designed primarily to be an interceptor which if employed in large numbers, could in theory overwhelm an adversary.

 

That's not to say the MiG can't beat the Mirage, but the driver would have to be skilled AND lucky.

[WinterH]

There's almost 1.5 decades and a whole generation between MiG-21Bis and Mirage 2000C.

 

It is not out of realm of possibility to score victories in a MiG-21 against Mirage in DCS, but it won't be easy. As far as fighters currently in DCS go, Mirage 2000C is roughly equivalent to MiG-29A.

 

Radar ? RDI in Mirage's nose is much longer ranged, more reliable and actually has look down / shoot down capability, unlike RP-22SM we have in MiG. Perhaps of more impact would be close in quick acquision modes Mirage may have, since that is a common theme among 4th generation fighters, which would make WVR fights much easier for Mirage.

 

Missiles ? Yes, they both are mainly 4 missile fighters but Super 530 is actually a proper BVR missile, and Magic II is a proper all aspect IR missile, both are simply better than any missiles the MiG has.

 

Gun ? Higher velocity and 30mm caliber gun on the Mirage would put more hurt out to a longer range, possibly more accurately too.

 

Speed & Acceleration : Probably somewhat comparable, with Mirage still being better by some margin.

 

Agility : Mirage 2000 gives F-16 quite some trouble at close range dogfighting, I'll leave it at that :). With some gap in pilot skill favoring the MiG and some situational advantage too for fishbed, it may be possible to win a duel but if Mirage pilot has some idea at all about what they're doing, it should be very difficult for them to lose.

 

Then there is easily overlooked yet rather significant issue of cockpit visibility, simply pu, Mirage offers a much wider and clearer view out of cockpit.

 

Seeing current possible fast jet challengers a MiG can face are : Su-27, MiG-29 and F-15, yes Mirage might be the most "fair" match for fishbed (perhaps MiG-29A may arguably be easier) but still it is quite a difference between the two possible rivals.

 

"Xth generation fighter jet" terms aren't coined for fun, they do mean something, even early 4th gen designs have it quite though against late 4th gen ones, and 5th gen is way ahead still. Seeing as MiG-21Bis is barely considered a baseline for 3rd generation and Mirage is certainly a 4th generation, it is clear what to expect :). It will be possible and extremely rewarding / accomplishing for a good MiG pilot to win, but often Mirage would be the victor, not too different from current match ups.

[mattebubben]

What were the Viggens like in agility? I know next to nothing about them.

 

It bleed speed pretty quickly and was not a great dogfighter. (compared to Mig-29 Mirage 2000c F-16 etc)

 

It was not made to dogfight with the russians.

 

It made up for this with a good Thrust-to-weight ratio and most advanced datalink system in the world prior to to the very late 90s.

 

(the Data link system allowed for 4 aircraft to fully share the radar pictures so if 1 viggen had the radar on and the other 3 had there radars off they still had all the radar info from the first aircraft and could lock weapons etc)

 

The Viggen is probably a worse Dogfighter then the Mirage 2000 F-15 F-16 or Mig-29 / Su-27 but it was not supposed to dogfight but instead use teamwork and hit/run tactics.

 

It had a ok instantenious turn but bleed speed quickly.

 

It was more manuverable then the Mig-23 and the Mig-21 but less manuverable then more modern fighters.

 

But that was mostly because the swedish doctrine of the time did not look for a close in dogfighter.

 

Since close in dogfights against superior numbers is a bad idea.

 

The swedish way to use the Viggen was to use the superior avionics / datalink system and have the viggens work in pairs to knockout enemy aircaft.

 

And since any swedish interception of russian aircraft would be above water there was no way for hostile aircraft to get within kniferange without being engaged so even the Mig-29/ Su27s would have had a hard time against Ja37s.

[Flogger23m]

The best counterpart in DCS World that is flyable is the MIG-29A. If we get an F-16A, we'll have another comparable plane. :)

[Zomba]

One thing I notice about many F-15 pilots, I don't want to appear antagonising, it's just an observation, but they are often very complacent. So many times I've caught them just motoring along at mid flight level at subsonic without a care in the world, head down staring at their radar and RWR unaware that you're blasting up from the clutter behind their 3-9 line. I've flown formation with enemy F-15s and they weren't even aware that I was there. I guess they are so used to dealing with adversary much like themselves and having that incredible radar and AIM-120 combination that they become too settled in that profile?

 

With the F-15 being more capable in the BVR than the Mirage maybe that will encourage Mirage pilots to explore different tactics to address that problem? Which leads onto Mirage pilots operating in a different way, placing more emphasis on positioning and avoiding counter detection. To me this would make the Mirages much more dangerous to deal with than an F-15; being less predictable, harder to detect, more likely to counter-detect you and more likely to encounter them in the low level. I don't think encountering a Mirage at low level would be a very pleasant experience. Normally with F-15s I have a reasonable idea of the rough area they are in and always make sure I remain undetected and have either an energy or positional advantage to avoid fighting on their terms. What am i supposed to do against this little French fighter if it refuses to fly like I want it too!:cry:

 

I'm just guessing here, who knows how things will turn out. It'll be very interesting at least.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Zomba

[King_Hrothgar]

That's how I see the Mirage 2k playing. It will need to be flown like the MiG-21 when facing F-15's, but it will be easier due to the better RWR, missiles and radar. In a MiG-21 vs Mirage 2k fight, I don't think it would be any different from the current MiG-21 vs F-15 fights. Either the MiG attacks with the element of surprise, or it dies. That said, I'd rather face the Mirage 2k than an F-15 if flying the MiG-21. AMRAAMs are annoying.

[Moos_tachu]

Seriously......

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2481877&postcount=52

 

I think the comparison gets brought up because it's a single engine delta wing craft.

 

Another common reading in this sub-forum... and another big mistake!

M2000 is a pure delta, MiG-21 has a horizontal tail plane => very different aerodynamics.

 

Actually, take a look from above at the M2000, MiG-21 and... F-16.

Now which two aircraft have a similar profile? ...... Surprise!

Yet I don't see people comparing the 21 and 16 for they have similar shapes...

 

Note: nothing personal with you Adese, as I said I'm just reacting to a common reading here.

 

A real fun comparison is the M2000/Rafale/Eurofighter/Grippen one.

 

Typical American way of seeing the world :D

 

Us = the good guys

Russia = the bad guys

Europe = rest of the world (pretty much) = all the same

 

I like that :)

 

Out, I'm going to open a topic for Sabre vs. MiG-21, and another one for P-51 vs. MiG-15.

Makes as much sense as this one :D

[Boberro]

maybe because it's a french aircraft...

 

Heheheheh good one xD

[jojo]

In a MiG-21 vs Mirage 2k fight, I don't think it would be any different from the current MiG-21 vs F-15 fights. Either the MiG attacks with the element of surprise, or it dies. That said, I'd rather face the Mirage 2k than an F-15 if flying the MiG-21. AMRAAMs are annoying.

 

I think You would have a hard time against M2000C in dogfight.

 

In MiG 21 you can benefit from having smaller and more nervous plane against F-15.

 

The M2000C is still small and nervous, care free handling thanks to FBW, and close combat modes similar to F-15 with the fire power of 2 x 30mm gun.

 

It's not the big Cadillac the F-15 is.

 

The M2000C can kill MiG 21 in BVR and evade at will, it can still handle MiG 21 in dogfight with an edge. Will see that in due time :joystick: