The controls in 1.5 are worse for hotas users.

[Pizzicato]

What was the point in REPLACING?

Why not just ADD those toggles?

 

This. This was an incredibly poorly thought out change. :(

 

I appreciate that some users wanted toggle functionality, but that should have been additive to the HOTAS-friendly implementation - not a replacement.

 

As Cichlidfan suggests, getting the old key binds back in is the correct solution.

[Fishbreath]

I have a CH Products HOTAS setup. This is an improvement for me—I can fit a bunch more two-position commands now. I appreciate the work that went into it, although I'd like the old ones back for a few things I used all three positions for (flaps, gear).

[FeistyLemur]

It's a Beta release, guys.

 

If you have some time; make a list of changes you'd like to see for your HOTAS setup.

 

I would like to see.

 

-Native support for TM warthog switches which was previously accomplished by the LUA edits in the sticky on this forum. The edits in that sticky were great, but they had some problems too. Namely the function would seemingly time out after a while and flipping the switch from an on to off position would do nothing. At the very least, the ability to still use the config file mods in that sticky restored.

 

-True separate on / off commands restored for all important toggle functions. Example. All the switches on the ASP such as giro/missile mode, bombing / shooting mode. Light controls need to have their separate commands restored.

 

I don't have the sim in front of me right now, but when I do I will present a list of every function I use and depend on as separate on / off commands. But to generalize. Anything that's a toggle switch and potentially used while doing another task such as landing, or in combat needs to be able to be quickly and definitively pressed without having to look down at the cockpit to verify whether it was out of sync or whether you accidentally double tapped the key even if it is on a keyboard bind.

Edited October 2, 2015 by FeistyLemur

[grunf]

It's a Beta release, guys.

 

If you have some time; make a list of changes you'd like to see for your HOTAS setup.

The best time to ask for changes is during the beta. :D

 

For me, it would be the best to leave key bindings as they were before 1.5, and add the toggles on top of that. E.g. for airbrakes - airbrakes on, airbrakes off, airbrakes on/off.

 

I like the way radio channels selection work now (channel up/down). Could you do the same for weapon selection?

[FeistyLemur]

The best time to ask for changes is during the beta. :D

 

For me, it would be the best to leave key bindings as they were before 1.5, and add the toggles on top of that. E.g. for airbrakes - airbrakes on, airbrakes off, airbrakes on/off.

 

I like the way radio channels selection work now (channel up/down). Could you do the same for weapon selection?

 

 

Definitely up / down functionality for any dial switch like the radio and weapons switch is ideal. This is also great for home cockpit users because it can be set up to work on a rotary encoder like the Leo Bodnar, or Desktop Aviator setups. And at the same time it's convenient for keyboard users.

 

It's worth noting the FC3 modules also do toggles in this way for many functions that add realism plus offer a simplified option. Example, they all have

 

-gear up

-gear down

-gear up/down

 

So all users are covered just by following this simple format.

Edited October 2, 2015 by FeistyLemur

[JorgeIII]

It's a Beta release, guys.

 

If you have some time; make a list of changes you'd like to see for your HOTAS setup.

 

Please at least add this options:

 

From old Colseg MOD, that allows hotas 2 and 3 position switches to be used. (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=130459)

 

This default.lua file when placed in the location specified by the file structure within the zipped archive will add the extra bindings:

3 Position

"Alternate Flaps Up"/"Alternate Flaps Down,"

"Alternate Gears Up"/"Alternate Gears Down"

"Alternate Landing Lights Land"/"Alternate Landing Lights Off"

"Alternate Weapon AA Mode - IR Missile"/"Alternate Weapon AA Mode - SAR Missile"

"Alternate Radar On"/"Alternate Radar Off"

"Alternate RSBN Mode: Descend"/"Alternate RSBN Mode: Landing"

"Alternate Nav Lights Min/Off"/"Alternate Nav Lights Max/Off"/"Alternate Nav Lights Max/Med"

"Alternate Low Altitude Antenna Tilt"/"Alternate Low Altitude Filter Off"

2 Position

"Alternate Gears Handle Lock released"

"Alternate Airbrakes On"

"Alternate Emergency Afterburner On"

"Alternate Engine Emergency Air Start On"

"Alternate Nosegear Brake On"

"Alternate APU On"

"Alternate Master Mode - Air"

"Alternate Landing Lights Land 2 Position Only"

"Alternate Weapon AA Mode - IR Missile 2 Position Only"

"Alternate Afterburner/Maximum On"

 

On the bindings with 2 options simply bind the up and down/on and off position to the respective positions on any of your 3 position switches, for the single bindings simply bind it to any of your two position switches. In this way the 3 position switches will have their middle position function as you would expect and the 2 position switches will have their down position function as expected as well.

 

This thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2289411 explains in detail the format of the keybinding lines in the Lua.

[Skjold]

I personally prefer the new ones becouse i do use Target software for the TM Warthog, but i'm fine with either or.

 

Also, there was a thread about this on the MiG-21 forums for several months and they announced well in advance that they were gonna switch to toggles after that thread came to a general consensus that people wanted the change. Now the opposite camp woke up and is demanding the opposite.

[FeistyLemur]

I personally prefer the new ones becouse i do use Target software for the TM Warthog, but i'm fine with either or.

 

Also, there was a thread about this on the MiG-21 forums for several months and they announced well in advance that they were gonna switch to toggles after that thread came to a general consensus that people wanted the change. Now the opposite camp woke up and is demanding the opposite.

 

False, I and several others were complaining in that thread as well as at least one other thread, and asking for clarification from the moment this was announced and we were all ignored until now.

[Skjold]

False, I and several others were complaining in that thread and asking for clarification from the moment this was announced and we were all ignored until now.

 

Guess i didn't read enough of that thread or my memory failed me then.

[Chann3l]

If the original controls could be added back in that would be pretty awesome. Spdt non momentary toggles just don't work with this. All my weapons controls are bound to proper toggles and now I have to turn the toggle on then off then on to use the function (or double bind which gets out of sync easily). For the moment it's now faster to just click on the switches while engaging in combat.

[Cpt.Rookie]

Guess i didn't read enough of that thread or my memory failed me then.

 

Well, not entirely.

 

Separate thread is http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=136310

 

Then there were some discussion - http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2465355&postcount=13 as reaction to changelog posted for 1.5

 

I have to say that (for me!) the final result we have in 1.5 OB is disappointing. Simply because of breaking "backward compatibility". I can clearly imagine that having separate keys for every function AND need of adding toggles could really quickly lead to situation when there are no more easily reachable keys available, but this cannot convince me that this was the step in right direction.

[FeistyLemur]

Well, not entirely.

 

Separate thread is http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=136310

 

Then there were some discussion - http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2465355&postcount=13 as reaction to changelog posted for 1.5

 

I have to say that (for me!) the final result we have in 1.5 OB is disappointing. Simply because of breaking "backward compatibility". I can clearly imagine that having separate keys for every function AND need of adding toggles could really quickly lead to situation when there are no more easily reachable keys available, but this cannot convince me that this was the step in right direction.

 

 

I posted in both of those locations. In fact those are precisely the two locations I was talking about.

[Zomba]

TM WH user. I'm disappointed with the reduction in compatibility. I can see this new standard being very good for non-positional switch HOTAS like x-52, but is of little use for TM WH. Would it have been feasible to have both methods of toggle or positional switching? Doesn't mean they all have to be bound by default, but it gives flexibility in binding. Is there a way to revert to the pre-1.5 system?

Edited October 3, 2015 by Zomba

[ElGringo]

Isn' t it possible to just add the commands from the old file to the new one while we wait for the LN to release the next patch?

[KAKTYC_11]

After beta release i miss "Flaps up& down" options i could mark on joystick keys!!! By the way i cant mark them even on axes - the field is empty!!!

[Aerovenator]

After beta release i miss "Flaps up& down" options i could mark on joystick keys!!! By the way i cant mark them even on axes - the field is empty!!!

I have the same issue with the flaps. It is not possible to map flaps to a stick button.

 

And for me it is also disappointing that toggles replaced the old binding system.

[scaflight]

I have an X-52 pro, and I reckon I was more satisfied with the previous arrangement. I absolutely concur that generally -adding- toggles is best - on, off, and on/off. Furthermore I would like to echo Grunf's (#29) call for the weapon selector.

Great job otherwise, Cobra and LN! :)

[WinterH]

I for one, find new toggle controls to be great for people with less sophisticated flight sticks like myself.

[FeistyLemur]

It's a Beta release, guys.

 

If you have some time; make a list of changes you'd like to see for your HOTAS setup.

 

Here is a list of commands, suggestions and general thoughts. Others perhaps will add notes to this. I have not fully gone over every change in 1.5 and I compiled this list based on looking at the controls as they stand in the release version.

 

 

Most important - These commands absolutely require separate on off functionality for definitive use without having to look down or check to see if they have gotten out of sync.

 

Weapon Mode - Air/Ground

Weapon Mode - IR/Neutral/Sar

Asp Mode - Missiles-rockets/Gun

Asp Mode - Bombardment/Shooting

Asp Main Mode - Manual/Auto

Asp Mode - Giro/Missile

Radar - Off/prep/on

Low Altitude off/comp/on

Locked Beam on/off

Missiles - Rockets Launch on/off

GS-23 gun on/off

Emergency Afterburner on/off

Engine Emergency Air Start on/off

Anti Surge Doors auto/manual

Flaps neutral/takeoff/landing

Gear up/neuteral/down

Gear handle fixator on/off

SPRD(RATO) drop cover open/close

release weapon cover open/close

Emergency Missile - rocket launch cover opoen/close

 

Less important - These commands are not absolutely vital but are nice to be able to add to a home cockpit or hotas set up and should also remain separate commands.

 

Navigation Lights Off/min/med/max

RSBN Mode Land/navigation/descend

Landing Lights off/taxi/land

pitot tube selector main/emergency

nosegear brake off/on

secure canopy on/off

hermetize canopy on/off

APU on/off

Drag chute cover open/close

Pipper on/off

Fix Net on/off

 

Not in game should be added - Some of these have already been added in 1.5, such as radio channel up down.

 

Radio channel next/previous

Weapon selector next/previous

rsbn navigation next/previous

prmg landing next/previous

engine stop lock on/off <- this one would be especially nice to get working properly with the warthog throttle stop lock, the current toggle is unworkable for this without using target, and even then it's iffy.

 

 

In general. If it has an off / on or multi position command structure now it should not be removed. The ideal setup that is inclusive to all types of users is what's done in FC3 for certain commands. example...

 

-toggle up

-toggle down

-toggle up/down

 

or...

 

-pos1

-pos2

-pos3

-pos4

-toggle pos1 - pos4

 

with this methodology everyone is happy, no one is left out and it doesn't need to be a fight over casual vs realistic that some people seem to feel it needs to be. Also I would possibly select a layout by cockpit location like some of the other modules do. Example, in black shark you have a "stick" option or "left panel" option. Maybe consider laying it out in accordance to the zones of the cockpit described in the manual.

 

I realize the goal here may be to clean up some of the extraneous commands. But if you're going to do that do it on non vital commands such as the various startup switches that are typically mouse clicked anyway twice per flight. Like for example the inverter and battery switches.

Edited October 3, 2015 by FeistyLemur

[scaflight]

Feisty: I disagree that

"RSBN Mode Land/navigation/descend"

should take any priority when changes are made. I mean, looking down in the cockpit is what you do when you're using those modes. :D

[uhntissbaby111]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. But what is exactly the issue here? What do people mean by toggle vs on/off switches?

[FeistyLemur]

Feisty: I disagree that

"RSBN Mode Land/navigation/descend"

should take any priority when changes are made. I mean, looking down in the cockpit is what you do when you're using those modes. :D

 

That wasn't meant to be in that list but the one below, I went over it a couple times and moved some stuff but overlooked that, I don't use that one much at all no. I placed it in the second set now. Still none of them should be changed if they are regularly used toggles is my argument. Only the startup and shutdown procedure toggles should be on the table for any command removal at all.

Edited October 3, 2015 by FeistyLemur

[Pizzicato]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. But what is exactly the issue here? What do people mean by toggle vs on/off switches?

 

TOGGLE = Press 'G' to alternate between gear up/ gear down/ gear up/ gear down

 

ON/OFF = Press "Lctrl+G" for gear up. Press "Lshft+G" for gear down.

 

(Note: These are not the actual mappings).

 

Toggles are generally easier/simpler for keyboard users.

 

For people with HOTAS (fancy programmable stick/throttles), toggles are a pain in the ass. You really want different commands for On/Off or Up/Down so that moving a switch always gives a predictable result. It's far too easy to get out of sync with toggles.

 

The best solution would be to support both options. What people (myself included) are getting grumpy about is the fact that On/Off functionality was removed in order to support toggles. This has messed up everyone's HOTAS functionality and made the experience worse for those of us with programmable sticks.

[Chann3l]

TOGGLE = Press 'G' to alternate between gear up/ gear down/ gear up/ gear down

 

ON/OFF = Press "Lctrl+G" for gear up. Press "Lshft+G" for gear down.

 

(Note: These are not the actual mappings).

 

Toggles are generally easier/simpler for keyboard users.

 

For people with HOTAS (fancy programmable stick/throttles), toggles are a pain in the ass. You really want different commands for On/Off or Up/Down so that moving a switch always gives a predictable result. It's far too easy to get out of sync with toggles.

 

The best solution would be to support both options. What people (myself included) are getting grumpy about is the fact that On/Off functionality was removed in order to support toggles. This has messed up everyone's HOTAS functionality and made the experience worse for those of us with programmable sticks.

 

I specifically built a custom toggle box to sit in between my hotas just for dcs and the mig21 had gotten the most use out of it as it was my favourite module, now it sits idly. This isn't a jab at LN either, you guys have done amazing work with the mig21 I would just like to continue to have the same great experience with it moving forward.

[7rooper]

Here is a list of commands, suggestions and general thoughts. Others perhaps will add notes to this. I have not fully gone over every change in 1.5 and I compiled this list based on looking at the controls as they stand in the release version.

 

 

Most important - These commands absolutely require separate on off functionality for definitive use without having to look down or check to see if they have gotten out of sync.

 

Weapon Mode - Air/Ground

Weapon Mode - IR/Neutral/Sar

Asp Mode - Missiles-rockets/Gun

Asp Mode - Bombardment/Shooting

Asp Main Mode - Manual/Auto

Asp Mode - Giro/Missile

Radar - Off/prep/on

Low Altitude off/comp/on

Locked Beam on/off

Missiles - Rockets Launch on/off

GS-23 gun on/off

Emergency Afterburner on/off

Engine Emergency Air Start on/off

Anti Surge Doors auto/manual

Flaps neutral/takeoff/landing

Gear up/neuteral/down

Gear handle fixator on/off

SPRD(RATO) drop cover open/close

release weapon cover open/close

Emergency Missile - rocket launch cover opoen/close

 

Less important - These commands are not absolutely vital but are nice to be able to add to a home cockpit or hotas set up and should also remain separate commands.

 

Navigation Lights Off/min/med/max

RSBN Mode Land/navigation/descend

Landing Lights off/taxi/land

pitot tube selector main/emergency

nosegear brake off/on

secure canopy on/off

hermetize canopy on/off

APU on/off

Drag chute cover open/close

Pipper on/off

Fix Net on/off

 

Not in game should be added - Some of these have already been added in 1.5, such as radio channel up down.

 

Radio channel next/previous

Weapon selector next/previous

rsbn navigation next/previous

prmg landing next/previous

engine stop lock on/off <- this one would be especially nice to get working properly with the warthog throttle stop lock, the current toggle is unworkable for this without using target, and even then it's iffy.

 

 

In general. If it has an off / on or multi position command structure now it should not be removed. The ideal setup that is inclusive to all types of users is what's done in FC3 for certain commands. example...

 

-toggle up

-toggle down

-toggle up/down

 

or...

 

-pos1

-pos2

-pos3

-pos4

-toggle pos1 - pos4

 

with this methodology everyone is happy, no one is left out and it doesn't need to be a fight over casual vs realistic that some people seem to feel it needs to be. Also I would possibly select a layout by cockpit location like some of the other modules do. Example, in black shark you have a "stick" option or "left panel" option. Maybe consider laying it out in accordance to the zones of the cockpit described in the manual.

 

I realize the goal here may be to clean up some of the extraneous commands. But if you're going to do that do it on non vital commands such as the various startup switches that are typically mouse clicked anyway twice per flight. Like for example the inverter and battery switches.

 

Great job!