Model Visibility Dependent on Resolution

[Bucic]

If the monitors are the same size and aspect ratio, 4 pixels on 2160p looks exactly like 1 pixel on 1080p.

Regarding the matter and to all.

I highly recommend you go through the previous thread on smart scaling to learn the basics on sizes, angular sizes and resolutions or soon we're going to have another thread where half of the lot argues their point :thumbdown:by stating size in display resolution.:thumbdown: Or that "in-game 3D models have wrong scale because I would see a 109 from 5 miles away as 2 inches but I see it in DCS as 1 inch in size" :doh:

 

When this happens you may be sure no one from ED is going to bother to read this thread.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Bucic

[shagrat]

I guess the important point is: It works! You can now spot planes, even ground units in a much needed way... Whatever resolution you use, it gives you a spot where there was nothing before, up to a believable distance and still you need to concentrate and have good eyes to find your opponents.

 

If people want to "cheat" with larger or lower resolutions, it is up to them. I personally don't see a more significant advantage than we had with 1.2.16 when using "lower resolutions" e.g. 1080p (bigger pixel dot in front of other pixel dots is not that "easier" to spot in a real mission).

The feedback I heard while in MP this Weekend was all positive! People are actually happy being able to spot planes. Nobody complained about "too easy" blobs and, yes, we all used "Enlarged" settings.

One particular comment was: " Now it is as good as IL-2: BoS when spotting planes! Now it is possible to really enjoy dogfighting."

I personally agree, finally no more fighting the Sim to spot something that is 800m in front of you is awesome.

 

Well done ED! A great compromise. A good and feasible solution! Not too easy, not too hard anymore... Thanks for listening. :)

Edited October 4, 2015 by shagrat

[xaoslaad]

I guess the important point is: It works! You can now spot planes, even ground units in a much needed way... Whatever resolution you use, it gives you a spot where there was nothing before, up to a believable distance and still you need to concentrate and have good eyes to find your opponents.

 

If people want to "cheat" with larger or lower resolutions, it is up to them. I personally don't see a more significant advantage than we had with 1.2.16 when using "lower resolutions" e.g. 1080p (bigger pixel dot in front of other pixel dots is not that "easier" to spot in a real mission).

The feedback I heard while in MP this Weekend was all positive! People are actually happy being able to spot planes. Nobody complained about "too easy" blobs and, yes, we all used "Enlarged" settings.

One particular comment was: " Now it is as good as IL-2: BoS when spotting planes! Now it is possible to really enjoy dogfighting."

I personally agree, finally no more fighting the Sim to spot something that is 800m in front of you is awesome.

 

Well done ED! A great compromise. A good and feasible solution! Not too easy, not too hard anymore... Thanks for listening. :)

It does work, but not at high resolutions. Do you know what a pixel on a 4k monitor looks like? Especially when it's not a pixel that's in high contrast to the background color? It might be ok on a 60" TV at 4k, or a large 40" monitor, but on a middle size monitor at 28" it's invisible.

[Haukka81]

It does work, but not at high resolutions. Do you know what a pixel on a 4k monitor looks like? Especially when it's not a pixel that's in high contrast to the background color? It might be ok on a 60" TV at 4k, or a large 40" monitor, but on a middle size monitor at 28" it's invisible.

 

 

This is true even 2560x1440 Rez, but enlarged is bit better than nothing at all

[*Rage*]

When comparing with my squadmates it appears the enlarged option is more effective (bigger) at smaller resolutions. Still a welcome change though.

[shagrat]

It does work, but not at high resolutions. Do you know what a pixel on a 4k monitor looks like? Especially when it's not a pixel that's in high contrast to the background color? It might be ok on a 60" TV at 4k, or a large 40" monitor, but on a middle size monitor at 28" it's invisible.

 

I play on 4k (28") as stated in my signature... so, yes, I know what I talk about.:smartass:

 

My personal experience is quite good so far. Yes, it is still 'hard' to spot planes (both on 4k and 1080p), but no longer impossible.

 

My feeling is it is very realistic and a good compromise.

 

To the 4k on a 10" Tablet PC or Retina Display on an iPhone problem there is no solution, as it always depends on the physical size not on the resolution!:noexpression:

[Nedum]

Is the new feature really working?

I have tested the three option at 1920x1200 pixel an all I can say I see no difference.

For me the most important part is this "fog" all over the map and the LOD System.

I can clearly see that without any need the vehicles uses an very early LOD.

At first the size becomes smaler, and after that the lights will not be shown anymore and after that the size will be reduced again and all that within of 100 meters.

Right now I have extrem problems to spot any target, even this target is only 1 mile away.

Played the D-9 intercept mission with 1.2.6 and 1.5.

I can spot the big Planes right after the missions starts with 1.2.6.

If I play the same mission with 1.5 I need 5+ seconds to spot the first plane... and after 2 miles or so I can't spot the big bird anymore.

Never before I've got such big problems to spot an aircraft.

The same problem with the ground vehicles. I see the ground vehicles only at the half of the distance as before with the old version of the game.

All is vanished within a grey fog and blur.

This "fog" thing and all this blur at distance makes me crazy!

Why this blur thing right now?

As I can see, the engine is using this blur to hide the popping of opjects, but makes the spotting much more difficult.

And as I've said I can't see any difference if I use the differtent spotting options. Off, normal or large... no difference to see for me.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Nedum

[Brisse]

This "fog" thing and all this blur at distance makes me crazy!

Why this blur thing right now?

 

The way I see it, the blur is to emulate a camera for those that want to take nice screenshots and make videos. Same thing with lens flare and lens dirt. Just go into the settings and turn all that stuff off.

[Nedum]

I would if I could, but there is no trigger to disable blur. :cry:

 

DoF is disabled and also all lens effects.

But the blur at distance is still there.

The difference of the LOD and the distance I can spot object between 1.2.6 and 1.5 is huge. I see much more 2 -3 times far away in 1.2.6 as in 1.5.

The new spotting system is not nearly as good as the old one.

Now I can't spot the P51D during the dogfight anymore. Even at 2 miles I can't spot this bird anymore with 1.5. With 1.2.6 is all good... hard to spot too but much more easily as with 1.5.

As I can see there sems to be a dependence between the LOD and the blur.

The plopping of opjects isn't so hard anymore, but at the same time the blur and the new LOD system makes the spotting of objects much harder for me, even with the option "large objects for spotting".

[Brisse]

Oh, sorry. I though you meant the dof when you said blur. Not sure what you are seeing then. I assume you view distance setting is properly tweaked? At high, I personally feel that I can see further and more clearly than in 1.2, especially from high altitude.

[lanmancz]

Perhaps there could be another option in the options menu to set the size of the screen (or can be read from windows hw info perhaps?) which the scaling algorithm would take into account with the given resolution to produce similar results on all screen sizes. But then again the real visibility also depends on how far you sit from your screen so I suppose we could go on and on adding more options.

Personally I like a lot how it currently works. On my 27" 1920x1080 screen it looks great.

[Nedum]

Oh, sorry. I though you meant the dof when you said blur. Not sure what you are seeing then. I assume you view distance setting is properly tweaked? At high, I personally feel that I can see further and more clearly than in 1.2, especially from high altitude.

 

If have set all to high or ultra and disabled DoF and lens effects.

The scaling for objects is set to large (I have also tested with off and normal).

4x MSSA and 16x AF (all ingame).

Compared to 1.2.6 the haze is the most annoying thing for me. As you can see at the screens in this thread, there is a haze all over the screen and this makes dark things grey and becuase this haze is all over the screen, I can't spot this darker grey very bad on a gray background, even this background is green with a grey haze over it.

In 1.2.6 there is no grey haze and now blur at the same distance.

I will make some screens for comparison.

[SinusoidDelta]

If have set all to high or ultra and disabled DoF and lens effects.

The scaling for objects is set to large (I have also tested with off and normal).

4x MSSA and 16x AF (all ingame).

Compared to 1.2.6 the haze is the most annoying thing for me. As you can see at the screens in this thread, there is a haze all over the screen and this makes dark things grey and becuase this haze is all over the screen, I can't spot this darker grey very bad on a gray background, even this background is green with a grey haze over it.

In 1.2.6 there is no grey haze and now blur at the same distance.

I will make some screens for comparison.

 

THIS. Users keep saying how great the update is graphically and I can't honestly say that. Speaking honestly, it actually looks worse than 1.2 did. I'm playing on a 34" 21:9 curved ultrawide monitor at a native resolution of 3440x1440 with frame rates over 100fps.

 

The haze/fog pervades the whole map. The terrain detail at medium altitude appears very poor on any setting. At high altitude the terrain is almost completely obscured by haze. The effect this haze has on depth perception is awful. Just like driving through fog IRL, it's very difficult to maintain spatial orientation and relative motion. I find myself descending, ascending, or banking without instruments because no indelible horizon exists. I've tried every combination of settings without resolve. 2 reports on the haze have been closed as they were deemed not a bug. Am I missing something? Why doesn't 1.5 look glorious for me as it does for everyone else?

Edited October 6, 2015 by SinusoidDelta

[Jagr]

The inability to see targets in the air in particular (and the ground to s lesser extent) has been what has always prevented me from enjoying this game. I have continued to support the project and have most of the modules, but I almost never play it. The way I see it the size and detail of the object is not the issue, its the color palette. Having the "Dot" of the target half a shade darker than the surrounding terrain/sky and then have haze blending everything together just makes it impossible for me to spot the planes until they are right on top of me.

 

With the older system (1.2) and the mod that allowed a black or grey dot to be inserted as an icon made a HGE difference for me. With the current system where the size can be adjusted if the image of the aircraft was offset in color from the surrounding more it would be a game changer.

 

This is NOT realistic.. I've been in the air and I can tell you that the capabilities of the monitor compared to the M1 eyeball are not even close. The ability to pick up objects, color differences and movement is VASTLY easier in real life than it is in here. The problem isn't the sizes being wrong. The problem is that while the viewing distances and relative LOD is being addressed the shortcomings of the presentation of that information on the monitor are not being addressed. The objects need to stand out from the background color palette more so that relative motion can be observed

 

For online play I can see where you want the playing field level, but most people play offline or coop with people they know where "cheating" isn't the concern, enjoyment is.

 

I really had high hopes that the new viewing system was going to make this playable and so far its not really any better. For me at least.

[EntropySG]

about the haze in 1.5, I have to agree, it would be nice to turn that off, or tune it down really. Love 1.5 and the fps improvement, but the haze makes it sometimes look worse than my (modded) 1.2 install

[=DECOY=]

about the haze in 1.5, I have to agree, it would be nice to turn that off, or tune it down really. Love 1.5 and the fps improvement, but the haze makes it sometimes look worse than my (modded) 1.2 install

 

 

I Think i know what you mean, altho if you turn of Depth of field, the haze is no more.

[Bucic]

The inability to see targets in the air in particular (and the ground to s lesser extent) has been what has always prevented me from enjoying this game. I have continued to support the project and have most of the modules, but I almost never play it. The way I see it the size and detail of the object is not the issue, its the color palette. Having the "Dot" of the target half a shade darker than the surrounding terrain/sky and then have haze blending everything together just makes it impossible for me to spot the planes until they are right on top of me.

 

With the older system (1.2) and the mod that allowed a black or grey dot to be inserted as an icon made a HGE difference for me. With the current system where the size can be adjusted if the image of the aircraft was offset in color from the surrounding more it would be a game changer.

 

This is NOT realistic.. I've been in the air and I can tell you that the capabilities of the monitor compared to the M1 eyeball are not even close. The ability to pick up objects, color differences and movement is VASTLY easier in real life than it is in here. The problem isn't the sizes being wrong. The problem is that while the viewing distances and relative LOD is being addressed the shortcomings of the presentation of that information on the monitor are not being addressed. The objects need to stand out from the background color palette more so that relative motion can be observed

 

For online play I can see where you want the playing field level, but most people play offline or coop with people they know where "cheating" isn't the concern, enjoyment is.

 

I really had high hopes that the new viewing system was going to make this playable and so far its not really any better. For me at least.

Exactly. Factors other than size have to be included.

[Bucic]

THIS. Users keep saying how great the update is graphically and I can't honestly say that. Speaking honestly, it actually looks worse than 1.2 did. I'm playing on a 34" 21:9 curved ultrawide monitor at a native resolution of 3440x1440 with frame rates over 100fps.

 

The haze/fog pervades the whole map. The terrain detail at medium altitude appears very poor on any setting. At high altitude the terrain is almost completely obscured by haze. The effect this haze has on depth perception is awful. Just like driving through fog IRL, it's very difficult to maintain spatial orientation and relative motion. I find myself descending, ascending, or banking without instruments because no indelible horizon exists. I've tried every combination of settings without resolve. 2 reports on the haze have been closed as they were deemed not a bug. Am I missing something? Why doesn't 1.5 look glorious for me as it does for everyone else?

This seems like a valid subject for a separate topic or even two. I wanted to investigate the haze myself. Seems off.

[EntropySG]

I Think i know what you mean, altho if you turn of Depth of field, the haze is no more.

 

 

Pretty sure I have DOF turned off.

Using some settings that someone posted for SweetFX kinda removed the 'haze' on my DCS 1.2 install, since the colors there dont look so washed out anymore.

 

I found some settings for reshade/SweetFX20 for DCS 1.5 that someone kindly posted, and they make it much better, but not as good as DCS1.2

 

Overall I LOVE the update, dont get me wrong, I just need to play with SweetFX settings to get nice and clear colors, black as black and not grey, at least on a sunny day with good weather.

[shagrat]

The inability to see targets in the air in particular (and the ground to s lesser extent) has been what has always prevented me from enjoying this game. I have continued to support the project and have most of the modules, but I almost never play it. The way I see it the size and detail of the object is not the issue, its the color palette. Having the "Dot" of the target half a shade darker than the surrounding terrain/sky and then have haze blending everything together just makes it impossible for me to spot the planes until they are right on top of me.

 

With the older system (1.2) and the mod that allowed a black or grey dot to be inserted as an icon made a HGE difference for me. With the current system where the size can be adjusted if the image of the aircraft was offset in color from the surrounding more it would be a game changer.

 

This is NOT realistic.. I've been in the air and I can tell you that the capabilities of the monitor compared to the M1 eyeball are not even close. The ability to pick up objects, color differences and movement is VASTLY easier in real life than it is in here. The problem isn't the sizes being wrong. The problem is that while the viewing distances and relative LOD is being addressed the shortcomings of the presentation of that information on the monitor are not being addressed. The objects need to stand out from the background color palette more so that relative motion can be observed

 

For online play I can see where you want the playing field level, but most people play offline or coop with people they know where "cheating" isn't the concern, enjoyment is.

 

I really had high hopes that the new viewing system was going to make this playable and so far its not really any better. For me at least.

The Labels are still available...

 

As compared to real life a spotting distance of 10nm for a P-51D sized plane is enormous, at least, I wonder what people expect?

 

This is not an arcade shooter where you get blobs and pointers to easily find enemy planes!

 

As in a real life dogfight "you lose sight, you lose the fight"... And believe me, I have my fair share of trouble keeping my eyes glued on an enemy plane, or spotting a squadron of P-51Ds in the distance.

Yes, it is hard to spot planes against the background. It is hard in real life as well.

 

Depending on humidity in the air, time of day or backdrop it is pretty damn hard to spot planes.

Just giving distant objects more contrast, darker colour, or red pointer arrows will make it easier, of course.

 

But honestly, then you can switch to Arcade avionics right away?

 

Train your spotting ability, force yourself to keep "eyes on target", while maneuvering the plane.

 

From my experience the current system with "enlarged" model visibilty is a real good compromise between playability and realism.

 

It should(!) be hard to spot a small plane at more than 5nm.

 

Have a read here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005594

 

...and a DC-3 is far larger, than a fighter.

So about 5.5 to 8.7 km(!) was the average "detection distance" if the pilots didn't know the exact location.

 

Currently at 5nm I can definitely spot a group of P-51Ds if I look in their direction and they are not obscured by my cockpit.

It is pretty realistic that approaching 10nm distance, even when knowing where to look, it is difficult to spot them.

 

At least in real life it is... :smartass:

Edited October 6, 2015 by shagrat

[SinusoidDelta]

The Labels are still available...

 

As compared to real life a spotting distance of 10nm for a P-51D sized plane is enormous, at least, I wonder what people expect?

 

This is not an arcade shooter where you get blobs and pointers to easily find enemy planes!

 

As in a real life dogfight "you lose sight, you lose the fight"... And believe me, I have my fair share of trouble keeping my eyes glued on an enemy plane, or spotting a squadron of P-51Ds in the distance.

Yes, it is hard to spot planes against the background. It is hard in real life as well.

 

Depending on humidity in the air, time of day or backdrop it is pretty damn hard to spot planes.

Just giving distant objects more contrast, darker colour, or red pointer arrows will make it easier, of course.

 

But honestly, then you can switch to Arcade avionics right away?

 

Train your spotting ability, force yourself to keep "eyes on target", while maneuvering the plane.

 

From my experience the current system with "enlarged" model visibilty is a real good compromise between playability and realism.

 

It should(!) be hard to spot a small plane at more than 5nm.

 

Have a read here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005594

 

...and a DC-3 is far larger, than a fighter.

So about 5.5 to 8.7 km(!) was the average "detection distance" if the pilots didn't know the exact location.

 

Currently at 5nm I can definitely spot a group of P-51Ds if I look in their direction and they are not obscured by my cockpit.

It is pretty realistic that approaching 10nm distance, even when knowing where to look, it is difficult to spot them.

 

At least in real life it is... :smartass:

See the video below at 20:00.

He has the target locked and at 17 miles (27 kilometers) gains visual nose to tail. This is further than your reference's ideal aspect for detection. He says something like, "It must be something big because you typically can't see a fighter at 17 miles.

[YOUTUBE]://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0IL3UoU9CbM[/YOUTUBE]https

[Dav IRL]

My experience has been the smoothness of the new engine or 'haze' effect has without any doubt made the sporting of vehicles in particular harder. It's like the enemy vehicles and objects needs more 'sharpness' to make it easier to spot.

[shagrat]

See the video below at 20:00.

He has the target locked and at 17 miles (27 kilometers) gains visual nose to tail. This is further than your reference's ideal aspect for detection. He says something like, "It must be something big because you typically can't see a fighter at 17 miles.

 

He had the Airliner(!) locked on radar, so he did know exactly(!) where to look.

 

Also, the "reference" is a study that checked the real life spotting abilities of pilots focused on the effects of lighting / contrast on spotting.

 

I have to point out, I didn't do these studies, professionals did that with real pilots. I only consider these people as more experienced in spotting aircraft than me, so I refer to their results, rather than guessing around what might be realistic.

.

As the study of Howell from 1957 showed, if the experimenter knew roughly where(!) the plane is he could spot it around 17-23km, which is fairly reasonable and quite similar to what I experience in DCS 1.5 now, with "Enlarged".

 

I was refering to the ability to spot a small fighter/WW II plane (P-51D) if you don't know where it is. Which happens fairly often in DCS.

 

So I see no great difference to the trained F-16 pilot's result in the video that spotted an "airliner" (possibly tad bit larger than a 60ies DC-3) at 27km with a nice HUD box around the exact spot, rather than just the approach angle?

 

I'll cite: (...)"Howell [5] carried out a field study in which pilots attempted to detect another aircraft (DC-3) approaching on a collision course. Over various conditions, the average distance at which detection by the pilot occurred (“detection distance”) was from 5.5 to 8.7 km. Of greater relevance to this study, the subject aircraft also carried an experimenter who knew exactly the approach angle of the target aircraft, and “kept constant vigil with his naked eye” until he detected the intruder aircraft. This “threshold distance”, over the same conditions, averaged from 17.3 to 23 km, about three times larger than the detection distance."(...)

 

Have a look at the study's result on different aircraft types and the "average" spotting distance, dependend on contrast. If we assume a perfect 1.0 contrast, and be a bit forgiving, an F-16 can be spotted @ about 5km average. A C-17 @ about 25km... and we talk about knowing exactly where the plane is!

 

(...)

 

This figure illustrates an obvious but important point. It is not possible to know the visible range for an aircraft without knowing its size, shape, orientation, brightness, and the brightness of the background sky. It is clearly impractical to make real world empirical measurements of visible range for all of these variables."(...)

 

The last statement, shedding some light on why an aircraft cannot be spotted at the same distance independent from lighting, aspect etc. so a plane with backlight has better contrast (just like in DCS 1.5) and when you fly the sun behind you the plane's shape is lighter and more difficult to spot (similar happens in DCS 1.5).

 

This whole discussion is not new! There will always be a faction who wants larger/easier spotting abilities and another faction who will cry "cheating" if we get that.

 

So my statement remains: the current solution is a very good compromise for both aspects and the actual results I see is pretty near to what real life pilots would have. Of course we have no 3D-vision, no reflections etc., but "larger blobs" are no solution to that, either.

Edited October 9, 2015 by shagrat

[BitMaster]

I am glad I am still not the only one having difficulties spotting even bigger in size aircraft.

 

OK, I need some glasses too but it still is the hardest part of dogfight in DCS, regardless of TIR or not, you gota see it first to track it.

 

I have been circling around last night in my MiG-15 doing the Intercept SP mission, I knew she was there, heard the props or at least thought I heard the props but it took another 5 circles around the hills until I finally spotted it.

 

The next mission that E-2 took off towards the sea... impossible to find...without radar and 35km away... oh boy... you aint got that much fuel and time.

 

It's hard, but it's hard for everybody and thus not unfair, some have an advantage with better suited monitors but still, it is anything but easy, it's a true skill.

 

 

Dont make it too easy !

[jeffmaysefaith79]

I want to chime in. First of all, its a SIM. There will never be a perfect solution to spotting distance until the sims get to the point where we are actually flying around the sky in real aircraft, and that ain't happening. Secondly, military aircraft are CAMOFLAUGED. They are supposed to be hard to see. I fly LSA all the time and on a clear sunny day I can spot a R22 @ 3,000 feet from around ten miles if the sun is behind me. There are tricks one can use in real life that just don't work on a monitor. I personally think the update and solution is a real step in the right direction, and it's still in beta. I'm sure it will be refined. DCS is the best and really the only sim of this caliber, and I appreciate the hell out of all the work that is put into it.