Jafferson Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I know the KA50 have a Laser warning System, and works against heat seeking Missiles and stuff. But its bugging me the ka50 have no System against a SAM. There is a Switch at the top left front Panel, but without function. Is this not implementet in this module, or the ka50 realy have no System like this? How is this in real life? Can't imagine ka50 have no Missile warning System.
Jafferson Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 I found this http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ka50-black-shark/ Countermeasures The Ka-50 is fitted with a radar warning receiver, electronic warfare system and chaff and flare dispenser. Why not in DCS???
outlawal2 Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Because there were multiple versions of this aircraft and the one modelled in DCS does not have it.. "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." RAMBO
ED Team Raptor9 Posted October 29, 2015 ED Team Posted October 29, 2015 Jafferson, you're not the first to ask this question (I wondered myself for a while), but like outlawal2 posted, ED modeled a specific version of the Ka-50. The Ka-50 never went into production, and the handful of airframes that existed were used to test various systems and configurations. Having said that, I feel your pain, it is frustrating not having a full suite of defensive systems, but with practice, you will find that good ol' Mother Earth is your best defense. Act like a sniper: Pop up to scan and/or shoot during a quick peek, than remask behind a hill or solid object. Scout out a new place to move to, dart over, and repeat the process. Never stay in one place too long, and never hover in the open for longer than a few moments. And to clarify something regarding your initial post, the LWR does not warn against heat-seeking missiles, only against laser-rangefinders and designators guiding missiles (or a main tank gun :D). Your best warning against a missile is a human wingman, or an AI wingman if that's all you got. 1 Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man. DCS Rotor-Head
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) So russian KA50 is hiding like a mouse in her hole, running for the cheese in the trap. I fly so low, i roll in to the battlefield, flying like this cant be the solution. Its not a shark, its black mouse 2 !!! Have no RWR because they made exactly the model without one is nonsense. This is not a model ready for a battelfield, in best case ready for the museum. There is no way to represent the strange of this greate aircraft with this outdatet model, its a shame. Edited October 30, 2015 by Jafferson
Retu81 Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 So russian KA50 is hiding like a mouse in her hole, running for the cheese in the trap. I fly so low, i roll in to the battlefield, flying like this cant be the solution. Its not a shark, its black mouse 2 !!! Sounds similar to every other attack helicopter in the world.
Dudikoff Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 The lack of an RWR in this variant is surprising, if not for SAM threats, but for the radar directed anti aircraft guns (e.g. Gepard and such) which is something the Ka-50 could definitely be expected to face. Since the same RWR system present in some Ka-50 prototypes is in use in FC3 airplanes (but not modeled to DCS standards, of course), ED's choice of not modeling the variant which has it is somewhat unexpected, but I wouldn't be surprised they were actually not allowed to model it in-depth since it's still in use in most of the Russian military airplanes. i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar!
FSKRipper Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 So russian KA50 is hiding like a mouse in her hole, running for the cheese in the trap. I fly so low, i roll in to the battlefield, flying like this cant be the solution. Its not a shark, its black mouse 2 !!! Have no RDW because they made exactly the model without one is nonsense. This is not a model ready for a battelfield, in best case ready for the museum. There is no way to represent the strange of this greate aircraft with this outdatet model, its a shame. Sorry but according to your argumentation you simply misunderstood how Gunships are supposed to operate. Time to educate yourself: http://realandsimulatedwars.yolasite.com/dcs-black-shark-tactics-primer.php As Retu said, all gunships are supposed to operate according to this rules. i9 9900K @ 5,0GHz | 1080GTX | 32GB RAM | 256GB, 512GB & 1TB Samsung SSDs | TIR5 w/ Track Clip | Virpil T-50 Stick with extension + Warthog Throttle | MFG Crosswind pedals | Gametrix 908 Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Cik Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 eh, unfortunately the environment is skewed against it, because you aren't really fighting the west as such, you are basically fighting russia circa 1970 in the theater; RWR isn't such a big problem if you hang low against terrain if you are fighting against your average western force where radar AAA isn't terribly common (at least, IIRC) but the georgian army/insurgents in country field ridiculous amount of ZU-23 / shilka, and the ZU-23, is especially egregious in that it's AI has "perfect" aim, where the only thing that ever saves you is bullet dispersion; they lead a moving target perfectly as far as i know, almost regardless of skill. essentially the odds are stacked enormously against something without an RWR, and even helicopters in general by the force chart of your average enemy in theater, as well as AI competence/cheating it's still possible to fly though. just have to have really good recon going in or expect to die horribly and often.
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Sounds similar to every other attack helicopter in the world. No its not similar to every other attack helicopter. Its similar to civilian aircrafts, who are not prepered for a threat. And today even some civilian airplains have a radar warning reciver. So dont tel me every other attack chopper flying without one... Edited October 30, 2015 by Jafferson
Cik Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 you're complaining about something that doesn't really matter anyway, your average zu-23 will still kill you even with an RWR and unless you recce perfectly you will die to them anyway. shilkas are actually easier to deal with, because they are easier to see and tend to stick to roads or columns tl;dr get good
Reaper6 Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I really don't see much of a need for the RWR in the Shark. You have your ABRIS which incorporates valuable intelligence. It will show you enemy Air Defense positions, as well as a threat overlay. If you use the ABRIS you can most certainly plan a route that will keep you out of range of the SAM/AAA. In my opinion it is 1000% better than having RWR. To my knowledge no other aircraft(in DCS World) has that capability to give you the EXACT location of enemy air defenses, radar emitting or not. Reaper6 Edited October 30, 2015 by Reaper6 "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
QuiGon Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I really don't see much of a need for the RWR in the Shark. You have your ABRIS which incorporates valuable intelligence. It will show you enemy Air Defense positions, as well as a threat overlay. If you use the ABRIS you can most certainly plan a route that will keep you out of range of the SAM/AAA. In my opinion it is 1000% better than having RWR. To my knowledge no other aircraft(in DCS World) has that capability to give you the EXACT location of enemy air defenses, radar emitting or not. Reaper6 But that depends on available intel and doesn't really work for moving targets. I'm not sure how DCS handles it though? What units are shown and which aren't on the ABRIS in the game? Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Sorry but according to your argumentation you simply misunderstood how Gunships are supposed to operate. Time to educate yourself: http://realandsimulatedwars.yolasite.com/dcs-black-shark-tactics-primer.php As Retu said, all gunships are supposed to operate according to this rules. Its not so easy like in the Manual you posted, even if you do everything right you fly blind against SAMs, there is no warning. Ok there is a Chance in the mountains, but how to deal with it in flat areas, maybe with some buildings for cover. You stil have to rise up to a min alt to shot a Missile, and you never know is there a sam in range or not. Without a lunch detection you have no Chance to react against the threat, and that makes me really unhappy :mad: Edited October 30, 2015 by Jafferson
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 eh, unfortunately the environment is skewed against it, because you aren't really fighting the west as such, you are basically fighting russia circa 1970 in the theater; RWR isn't such a big problem if you hang low against terrain if you are fighting against your average western force where radar AAA isn't terribly common (at least, IIRC) but the georgian army/insurgents in country field ridiculous amount of ZU-23 / shilka, and the ZU-23, is especially egregious in that it's AI has "perfect" aim, where the only thing that ever saves you is bullet dispersion; they lead a moving target perfectly as far as i know, almost regardless of skill. essentially the odds are stacked enormously against something without an RWR, and even helicopters in general by the force chart of your average enemy in theater, as well as AI competence/cheating it's still possible to fly though. just have to have really good recon going in or expect to die horribly and often. I understand your opinion, but we are not in the 1970. We Play on multiplayer Servers and facing Tunguskas and stuff. I didnt buy the KA50 to be only a big target for everything with a radar Missile, its not funny and disappointing me.
Reaper6 Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 But that depends on available intel and doesn't really work for moving targets. I'm not sure how DCS handles it though? What units are shown and which aren't on the ABRIS in the game? No it does not work for moving targets, just the intel at the time you get into the Shark. All air defense including EWR is shown on the ABRIS. I'm not an expert when it comes to RWR. But as far as I know it really only gives you the direction, whether it is within launch range, and what type of threat. So for me, I think I am better off just using the ABRIS in the Shark. Just my opinion, but if you are flying a helicopter gunship you should be flying it pretty close to the dirt. In which RWR wouldn't help you anyway. Reaper6 "De oppresso liber" NZXT Phantom Full Tower, Intel Core i7 4960X Processor(6x 3.60GHz/15MB L3Cache) 20% Overclocking, 64GB DDR3-2133 Memory, NVIDIA GeForce GTX Titan Black-6GB SLI Mode(Dual Cards), Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Motherboard, ViewSonic PJD5132 SVGA Multi-Region 3D Ready Portable DLP Projector, Track IR 5, Thrustmaster Warthog, Cougar MFDs.
AlphaOneSix Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 RWR does not give range, only direction, as has already been mentioned. Also, RWR does not include launch detection, it can only differentiate between radar frequencies, so it can typically tell if the threat radar is a tracking radar or just a search radar.
ED Team Raptor9 Posted October 30, 2015 ED Team Posted October 30, 2015 Jafferson, Unfortunately, the reality of the world (whether it's 1970's or 2015) is that helicopters face exponentially more threats on the battlefield that are not dedicated anti-air weapons. Helicopters are central to the ground war, and there is a lot of lead and warheads being thrown around in the ground war. You can have all the defensive systems you can mount on a helicopter, and you will still be relatively vulnerable. Defensive aids like missile warning systems, jammers, RWR's and buckets upon buckets of chaff and flares are more critical for fast-moving jets because they operate high in the sky where you have nothing to hide behind. Unless you're operating in the weeds like an A-10 or an Su-25 or other dedicated attack jet, you will be out of range of everything except dedicated anti-aircraft weapons. When I fly the A-10 or Su-25, I normally get brought down by heavy machine gun fire or ZU-23's during or immediately after my attack runs. My point is those systems you want so badly only warn you of a small fraction of the total threats helicopters face on the battlefield. Tactics are what make a attack helicopter pilot so deadly. Here's some useful information that can help you: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140954 I understand your frustration. I felt a little behind the curve myself when I started playing Black Shark when it first came out. I was used to relying on warning sensors and such from previous flight sims, but I learned to adjust my tactics and techniques and practiced to the point I don't miss them anymore. Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man. DCS Rotor-Head
blkspade Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I understand your opinion, but we are not in the 1970. We Play on multiplayer Servers and facing Tunguskas and stuff. I didnt buy the KA50 to be only a big target for everything with a radar Missile, its not funny and disappointing me. Look at it this way. In the KA50 an RWR would basically give you time to pray. If you're flying both high enough and fast enough to be detected/engaged by something with radar missiles, you're gonna end up dead anyway. This is particularly true if its an aircraft, and worse if they're AI. A lot of the time radar missiles will miss ka50s (the ones doing it right), so I'll fire an AIM-9 at them instead or guns. You're primary missile threat will generally be IR. You're limited closure rate is gonna put you pretty close, to far inside visual range before you're engaged. http://104thphoenix.com/
Yurgon Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I understand your opinion, but we are not in the 1970. We Play on multiplayer Servers and facing Tunguskas and stuff. I didnt buy the KA50 to be only a big target for everything with a radar Missile, its not funny and disappointing me. Oh, so that's where your complaints are coming from? That you lack the RWR in the MP environment? Here's the thing. ED didn't model the Ka-50 because it was perfectly suited for MP. IIRC it wasn't even MP compatible with anything except other Ka-50s on release. I'm sure there are reasons why ED modeled this very specific airframe which doesn't feature RWR, unfortunately I don't think they ever fully disclosed them -- but there were some pretty good guesses along this thread IMO. I'm not a RL pilot (neither civilian nor military), but I think your understanding of attack helicopters and their tactics is somewhat influenced by simpler games. If you haven't done so already, read some of the amazing books out there like Apache, Low Level Hell, Chickenhawk, Snake Pilot (among others) that should provide you with more of an understanding of what it's like to fly helicopters in a war and what threats the crews face. So if you think the lack of RWR sucks in the MP environment... - reevaluate your expectations - adjust your tactics - read the forum -- tons of good advice around here - make use of your coalition (aka play together and communicate) - find a better mission - build better missions yourself - find a better server - sign up with one of the many virtual squadrons so you're not fighting as a lone wolf Regarding arguments for and against Ka-50 RWR, previous discussions are full of them, just use the search function.
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Oh, so that's where your complaints are coming from? That you lack the RWR in the MP environment? Here's the thing. ED didn't model the Ka-50 because it was perfectly suited for MP. IIRC it wasn't even MP compatible with anything except other Ka-50s on release. I'm sure there are reasons why ED modeled this very specific airframe which doesn't feature RWR, unfortunately I don't think they ever fully disclosed them -- but there were some pretty good guesses along this thread IMO. I'm not a RL pilot (neither civilian nor military), but I think your understanding of attack helicopters and their tactics is somewhat influenced by simpler games. If you haven't done so already, read some of the amazing books out there like Apache, Low Level Hell, Chickenhawk, Snake Pilot (among others) that should provide you with more of an understanding of what it's like to fly helicopters in a war and what threats the crews face. So if you think the lack of RWR sucks in the MP environment... - reevaluate your expectations - adjust your tactics - read the forum -- tons of good advice around here - make use of your coalition (aka play together and communicate) - find a better mission - build better missions yourself - find a better server - sign up with one of the many virtual squadrons so you're not fighting as a lone wolf Regarding arguments for and against Ka-50 RWR, previous discussions are full of them, just use the search function. Ok you say my tactics are bad, maybe you have right. Im sure you have a lot of expirence flying the KA50 maybe i can learn from you. I think most People know the Dragons Trainingpack, i made the BS Training on Hard but i mean the normal pack. There is a Mission called Weapons_training_v40 with a area called hard in ZUGDIDI. I want see how to clear this area, show me how to made this or someone else. Please
Isegrim Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Sorry but flying the KA-50 is not that easy as many expect. Training Training Training....... Just something for you to know ...use the Manual Weapons mode. ISE "Blyat Naaaaa" - Izlom
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Sorry but flying the KA-50 is not that easy as many expect. Training Training Training....... Just something for you to know ...use the Manual Weapons mode. ISE Training Training is easy to say, then show me how to take out the 8 Tunguskas in this area. Edited October 30, 2015 by Jafferson
Yurgon Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I think most People know the Dragons Trainingpack, i made the BS Training on Hard but i mean the normal pack. There is a Mission called Weapons_training_v40 with a area called hard in ZUGDIDI. I want see how to clear this area, show me how to made this or someone else. Please Things are going in a particular direction, which I think is a good development. Taking a common frame of reference like this mission is also a good idea because it means questions will be more to the point and results more comparable. Personally I've never flown this part of Dragon's Training pack, but once my new TrackIR arrives I'll be sure to give it a go. I'm just not 100% sure what this mission is supposed to achieve in regards to the RWR discussion. If I read correctly, one of your biggest gripes is getting shot down by fighters of the opposite faction, right? Does Dragon's Training include this type of threats, and will they be even remotely comparable to human controlled MP players? The briefing is a bit vague on the exact nature of the mission and I'd rather not even try without TrackIR.
Jafferson Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Here is a linke to download the Mission... http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=68802 The Weapons Training Mission (hard area) have only ground Units, biggest threat are the Tunguskas... Edited October 30, 2015 by Jafferson
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