1.5.1.46722.87 Model Visibility removal

Deano87 · November 19, 2015

I am betting the final release with model visibility feature will be quite different than what is being seen currently in the beta builds. We'll see.

I agree. Its also difficult to have an adult conversation about how it could be changed to improve it, when you have somebody shouting as loud as he can that its horrible and archaic.

dburne · November 19, 2015

I have only been flying the KA-50, have been flying some combat missions this week. I have model enlargement setting at Medium.

If it is supposedly helping me see any ground targets better, I sure am not seeing it lol.

But using full zoom definitely helps somewhat...

SharpeXB · November 19, 2015

Its broken as it currently is.. for sure.

Correct. That much would be apparent to anyone. Including ED themselves. So why even Beta test the current version?

It's so broken I feel no need to test it myself. Plus my hardware isn't typical so there's no real point.

Meanwhile in IL-2 BoS it's possible to see all the air and ground targets without any trouble for the majority of the players and none of the objects are visible for 60km or rendered as large as a skyscrapers. Gee how does that work?

Edited November 19, 2015 by SharpeXB

dburne · November 19, 2015

Correct. That much would be apparent to anyone. Including ED themselves. So why even Beta test the current version?
It's so broken I feel no need to test it myself. Plus my hardware isn't typical so there's no real point.

Which setting is broken?

Off

Small

Medium

Large

Broken how? Which models? All of them? Some of them, if so which ones?

What distances?

Current build or previous builds?

SharpeXB · November 19, 2015

Which setting is broken?
Off
Small
Medium
Large

Broken how? Which models? All of them? Some of them, if so which ones?
What distances?
Current build or previous builds?

Even the smallest setting is broken

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2552967&postcount=73

It's this that makes me think the whole thing is not taken seriously by ED. That the smallest setting shows vehicles 65km away. Why would you even Beta test this?

Deano87 · November 19, 2015

Correct. That much would be apparent to anyone. Including ED themselves. So why even Beta test the current version?
It's so broken I feel no need to test it myself. Plus my hardware isn't typical so there's no real point.

You say that you don't have a typical setup... did you ever think that possibly because of your setup that your experience of playing DCS is also atypical? Did you think that because of your setup you may have an opinion on model visibility that doesn't match the majority of other people out there?

Also regarding why beta test it? Well, because that is what beta testing is for! The whole point is to put it out there and let a representative group of players leave feedback on it.. If they had released the final version of 2.0 in this current state than I could understand your consternation but in beta these anomalies are to be expected. How about instead of just stating how terrible it is without trying it, why don't you give it a go and then leave some constructive feedback on how it performs on your atypical hardware setup. That actually might help the devs tweak it in the right direction to a place which would be acceptable for you and acceptable for other people with other setups. FYI 1.5 is installed alongside 1.2 so it wouldn't interfere with your current setup in any way.

dburne · November 19, 2015

Even the smallest setting is broken
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2552967&postcount=73

It's this that makes me think the whole thing is not taken seriously by ED. That the smallest setting shows vehicles 65km away. Why would you even Beta test this?

Yes I have seen that, you have posted that link multiple times...

Why would I not beta test? I am having a blast and 1.5 is fantastic even with some of the bugs.

Which is what beta testing is for...

Running an Open Beta is not for everyone no doubt, and anyone that can not put up with having bugs initially certainly does not need to participate.

However to not participate in the OP, but to scream loudly over and over, about certain bugs in a particular build on a new feature being tested, when not even participating in the beta just seems a little ridiculous to me.

SharpeXB · November 19, 2015

You say that you don't have a typical setup... did you ever think that possibly because of your setup that your experience of playing DCS is also atypical? Did you think that because of your setup you may have an opinion on model visibility that doesn't match the majority of other people out there?

I used a 1080p monitor for many years with this and other flight sims. I'm old and I wear bifocals. As far as visibility goes DCS seems better in some instances and not in others. The issue is more of a reduced color palette than anything else. But I didn't have trouble seeing objects even in 1.2 at 1080p. Does it need improvement? Sure it does. But it needs a better job than this.

This is an issue which some players will constantly complain about in every flight sim and there's only so much that can be done.

And as a rule I just don't do betas. Even this one.

Edited November 19, 2015 by SharpeXB

HornedGod · November 19, 2015

SharpeXB, you've made your point numerous times in this thread already. IMHO you're repeating yourself so much that you're coming across as a troll. If anyone from ED is reading this thread for input on this feature they've read you loud and clear. No need to beat a dead horse.

You've made your point, how about now letting others offer suggestions on how to fix and improve the feature without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What is there now is a great start and pretty much all I need for my WWII aeriel combat needs with my setup. For groundpounders, those with VR, etc. there is still room for improvement.

Until such time as to when you have first hand experience of the feature (seeing it in motion is also different then seeing static screeenshots of it), how about you take a break.

AMEDooley · November 19, 2015

I understand your issue, and this setting does work great for you.

But this not only affect tanks, also airplanes, and I understand that someone with low resolution and or vision problems, would benefict from this setting as much as my 50 inches 1080 screen helps me.

But for me in my current screen size I consider this a cheat from my part. I dont need it and it actually makes the game less fun for me.

The problem here is that somebody without vision problems, with a 4K 60 inches screen will want to use the enlargment system as a way to see thing before anyone can do it.

And that.. is the definition of cheating.

I only ask for server force this out.

And I assure you as today there are a few servers with labels on... there will be servers with this setting on. here is another screen from last night 104th

Those black point are not smoke.. they are actually tanks

Then if you don't need to use it then don't. It's not a cheat to have a 4K monitor vs someone who doesn't have one, so why would it be a cheat if you use this instead of a 4K monitor. This really is just leveling the playing field for those that don't have 4K monitors. Even if a person uses both this and a 4K monitor it still wouldn't be a cheat, cause you can do it too. You considering it a cheat doesn't make it so.

Also if you allow zooming and use the reasoning because things are to small, and irl you'd see them your point is moot. This can take the place of zooming so you don't have to and make it closer to real life. Because again you can't zoom in your eye sight. If you're zooming in to find something that's fine, but now you don't have to. I'm way okay with this to me that sounds more like progress than a step backwards..

Remember people, this is a game. It's meant to be fun. Don't get angry that now people who were having some visual problems can enjoy the game far more now. But the major point is, if you don't like, don't use it and don't get angry at those who do.

alfredo_laredo · November 19, 2015

Then if you don't need to use it then don't. It's not a cheat to have a 4K monitor vs someone who doesn't have one, so why would it be a cheat if you use this instead of a 4K monitor. This really is just leveling the playing field for those that don't have 4K monitors. Even if a person uses both this and a 4K monitor it still wouldn't be a cheat, cause you can do it too. You considering it a cheat doesn't make it so.

Also if you allow zooming and use the reasoning because things are to small, and irl you'd see them your point is moot. This can take the place of zooming so you don't have to and make it closer to real life. Because again you can't zoom in your eye sight. If you're zooming in to find something that's fine, but now you don't have to. I'm way okay with this to me that sounds more like progress than a step backwards..

Remember people, this is a game. It's meant to be fun. Don't get angry that now people who were having some visual problems can enjoy the game far more now. But the major point is, if you don't like, don't use it and don't get angry at those who do.

Im not angry. As you say this is a game. And im all to let people with visual problems get help.

But I want this forced via server side. Thats it.

This is the exact same thing as labels. Either you use them or not its up to you. But i want de most realistic simulation i can get out of a pc game.

And im looking for servers that give me that inmersion.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

SharpeXB · November 19, 2015

But I want this forced via server side. Thats it.
This is the exact same thing as labels. Either you use them or not its up to you. But i want de most realistic simulation i can get out of a pc game.
And im looking for servers that give me that inmersion.

Agree.

I change my mind. I'm completely satisfied with the Enlarged Model setting as it is now. Because in it's current larger state there's zero chance it will ever be allowed in multiplayer, on realistic servers.

So I will never have to worry about it.

Edited November 19, 2015 by SharpeXB

JawsMa · November 19, 2015

If anyone have an interest: :-)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005594

Cheers!

/Jaws

SharpeXB · November 19, 2015

If anyone have an interest: :-)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0005594

Cheers!

/Jaws

Hey that's great.

So without delving into all the math, just the summary. An average pilot would see a target the size of a DC-3 at about five miles. If they didn't know it was there before.

A spotter deliberately looking who knows its location could pick it up at as far away as 12 miles.

See even in DCS 1.2 that's about what we have. Even on a 1080p screen, if I know the location of a bandit from radar, I can visually acquire them at that 10 mile range easy, and a fighter aircraft size as well. But spontaneously seeing another aircraft usually won't happen till around 5 miles. So what's done in DCS 1.2 isn't that far off. And it's not a matter of size, contrast plays the biggest role.

tflash · November 19, 2015

Thanks guys to pointing me out this nice new feature. I mostly play single player, and often have labels turned on because I cannot see a thing (contrast being indeed the main issue). I hugely prefer this model enlargement setting over labels, since the latter profoundly alters the gameplay.

I do not care whether the AI now thinks I'm a cheater, since honestly there are no bigger cheaters in DCS than the AI. It's time for payback I would say! :D

I do agree that this setting shouldn't require a restart of the game and that it should be able to disable it serverside.

grunf · November 19, 2015

Hey that's great.
So without delving into all the math, just the summary. An average pilot would see a target the size of a DC-3 at about five miles. If they didn't know it was there before.
A spotter deliberately looking who knows its location could pick it up at as far away as 12 miles.
See even in DCS 1.2 that's about what we have. Even on a 1080p screen, if I know the location of a bandit from radar, I can visually acquire them at that 10 mile range easy, and a fighter aircraft size as well. But spontaneously seeing another aircraft usually won't happen till around 5 miles. So what's done in DCS 1.2 isn't that far off. And it's not a matter of size, contrast plays the biggest role.

You should read more carefully and not see only what you want to see. :)

AMEDooley · November 19, 2015

Im not angry. As you say this is a game. And im all to let people with visual problems get help.

But I want this forced via server side. Thats it.
This is the exact same thing as labels. Either you use them or not its up to you. But i want de most realistic simulation i can get out of a pc game.
And im looking for servers that give me that inmersion.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

You talk about immersion and how this feature kills it. Yet I bet you zoom in all the time to locate targets. How is that any different? I don't know a single pilot that takes binoculars with him on a sortie. So if you want immersion, the ability to turn off in server, then that's fine. But also turn off the zoom feature as well.

I love this feature. I actually feel like I can do things. I'm not spending, what seems like forever finding targets. I get that this feature isn't for everyone. And that's fine. But this feature is neither immersion killing, especially if you zoom in, nor is it a cheat. Now if you want to say that the implementation of it right now isn't good, i.e. Models are too big or can be seen from too far a distance, that would be great. That's info the devs need to balance the feature. But to say it's crap and needs to be taken out completely is an awful idea.

Having said that, I haven't tried the new version of this feature yet so I can't comment on the modeling being too big. The last version was fabulous, it helped a great deal. But even if that's the case I'm confident that the devs will take the problem and scale it down. This is a beta and that what this is for. To experiment with features and see what the limits or problems are if they tweak it. This is way better than them tweaking it in the final version and have to scramble to fix it.

alfredo_laredo · November 20, 2015

Warthog pilots in first gulf war used binoculars to locate targets.. As described in "warthogs flying the a-10 in the gulf war" by william l. Smallwood

Also if you havent tested the new version, please do.

Topic is named 1.5.1.46722.87 model visibility removal.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

Deano87 · November 20, 2015

You talk about immersion and how this feature kills it. Yet I bet you zoom in all the time to locate targets. How is that any different? I don't know a single pilot that takes binoculars with him on a sortie. So if you want immersion, the ability to turn off in server, then that's fine. But also turn off the zoom feature as well.

I love this feature. I actually feel like I can do things. I'm not spending, what seems like forever finding targets. I get that this feature isn't for everyone. And that's fine. But this feature is neither immersion killing, especially if you zoom in, nor is it a cheat. Now if you want to say that the implementation of it right now isn't good, i.e. Models are too big or can be seen from too far a distance, that would be great. That's info the devs need to balance the feature. But to say it's crap and needs to be taken out completely is an awful idea.

Having said that, I haven't tried the new version of this feature yet so I can't comment on the modeling being too big. The last version was fabulous, it helped a great deal. But even if that's the case I'm confident that the devs will take the problem and scale it down. This is a beta and that what this is for. To experiment with features and see what the limits or problems are if they tweak it. This is way better than them tweaking it in the final version and have to scramble to fix it.

+1

dburne · November 20, 2015

I love this feature. I actually feel like I can do things. I'm not spending, what seems like forever finding targets. I get that this feature isn't for everyone. And that's fine. But this feature is neither immersion killing, especially if you zoom in, nor is it a cheat. Now if you want to say that the implementation of it right now isn't good, i.e. Models are too big or can be seen from too far a distance, that would be great. That's info the devs need to balance the feature. But to say it's crap and needs to be taken out completely is an awful idea.

+1

Well said and I agree fully.

SharpeXB · November 20, 2015

Warthog pilots in first gulf war used binoculars to locate targets.. As described in "warthogs flying the a-10 in the gulf war" by william l. Smallwood

Right. But an real pilot wouldn't need binocs to see everything. An easily seen object like civilian vehicles would be seen with a naked eye from 20,000'.

Yet I bet you zoom in all the time to locate targets.

The zoom view in this and every other flight sim is provided in order to replicate 20/20 eyesight on a small low res PC screen. Otherwise players would be unable to see distant objects in the same way they can in reality.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SharpeXB

vicx · November 20, 2015

Guys can I direct you back to this post.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2558667&postcount=163

This shows that spotting is broken without the new features even being used. Sharepe, you already use an enlargement system that is broken dude ... and it gives you massive benefits compared to low resolution users and VR users. Of course you would defend it and want to keep it unchanged.

We need a system that is "resolution dependent". This way it can be tweaked perfectly to provide a realistic and fair representation of objects. This means getting rid of long distance LODS and the legacy FLANKER/LOMAC way of doing things.

You guys can talk about the new features but if they built on top of an old system that is broken and flawed ... the new system will be broken and flawed.

Dav IRL · November 20, 2015

Can I suggest instead of 'enlarging' objects how about a slight 'glow' or 'luminosity' on objects instead? If we had the option to turn on a 'highlight objects' where all aobjects ommit a small glow.

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vicx · November 20, 2015

DAV ... not a fan of that idea but why don't you create an image to show us what you think it should look like. Someone could easily troll this thread with suggestions but maybe you can show us what you have in mind with a picture that shows very clearly what you have in mind.

Doge "overly masochistic server admins" can do what they want. Let there be choices and players will choose. Dedicated server is coming eventually ... that is the main thing holding back online play.

AMEDooley · November 20, 2015

So after using this feature after the update, the model scaling is too big on ground targets. It didn't seem to me that the air targets were as bad as the ground targets. I had it on small and it definitely was too big. I'm going to try and see what happens when I try the other setting but I'm sure it'll only get bigger. So this needs to be tweaked to make the feature work the way ED intended. Still like this feature, just need to change the values, maybe split the difference with the first values and these. The way the ground targets looked on small should be what they look like on max enlargement. Just my thought.

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