Game / Simulator: What defines each and where does DCS fit in?

[Zimmerdylan]

I see this topic often debated on these forums. I'm just curious how people feel about this topic. Honestly......it is the closest thing to politics that we'll ever get on the forum because many people feel so passionately about it.

I will share some of my experience and opinion on it and others can call me crazy or offer up their opinion. :pilotfly:

I have flown in very expensive airline simulators. The full cockpit kind with hydraulic effects and the works, that they use to train and certify pilots. The company is Arizona Flight Safety and their located at TIA here in Tucson. And I have to say.....it was an awesome experience.

Since my only reference to the heavy airliners is Xplane, I can very easily say that I was able to get the plane started, off the ground, and back to earth safely (albeit bumpily at times). The real issues I had did not center on knowledge of what to do but rather than where the heck everything in the cockpit was. I was use to using a keyboard and had very little knowledge of where things were in the cockpit. This is a strike against XPlane for their lack of real world detail in their cockpits. But, to their merit, I knew what I was suppose to do and with a few minor things that I was not aware of aside, I could fly the plane. I did have an instructor there coaching me and if he weren't there I surely would of crashed the plane because I was totally clueless as to where the elevator trim was located in a 737. Needless to say.....It wasn't on a keypad. But I could fly this plane with the knowledge that I got from a "sim"

I also flew a Bell 400. And with this, I drew on my DCS Huey experience. Was I able to fly it?? Yes and no. Getting it off the ground was not easy. But again, with the coach, I got it airborne. Hovering was much easier than I thought but I believe that there were several factors (mostly the sensations of the AC movement) that were at play. It was much easier to hover the sim than DCS. But...If I had never flown DCS, I never would have been able to fly this simulator. I landed (took some time, trial and error) the aircraft on a freeway in California without incident. And again if I had never flown DCS, I would have been much more incapable of flying this thing in real life. All in all....I'd say that DCS was far superior and prepared me more for this experience. And the only real thing that I took from Xplane was the cockpit visual on the 737. I still used much of my DCS experience to deal with the 737.

So does this make DCS a sim or a game? Boy....it's hard to say. I am convinced that it does give you enough knowledge that you could conceivably fly an F86 or even a P51 with minimal yet mandatory preparation. A10C....I doubt. This is only because of the systems involved.

So I lean DCS toward being a hobby that's the closest thing to a sim out there. I label sims like Xplane and FSX as hobbies that stray much further away from being a sim. DCS definitely has the goods as far as detail and flight characteristics. I remember getting that 737 off the ground and the whole plane just went nose up. The yoke was pushing so hard against me as I struggled to find a way to trim it down while the instructor was yelling out....left thumb! Left thumb!!!....lol. It totally reminded me of many of the DCS planes. Where as in other sims...I have to pull back on the stick after takeoff.

So DCS is a great hobby that may never be like real flying (unless you attach it to a hydraulic cockpit). But nothing else I have flown on a PC comes close. So its kind of a sim. And a little bit of game. Why game??? Because I would never have the huevos to even attempt a real flight in one of these high performance planes for fear of ending up a grease spot on a runway somewhere. Even with an instructor there. Otherwise...you can die in a real plane, not in DCS.

Just one simmer's humble experience and opinion.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Zimmerdylan

[Exorcet]

I think the most objective answer is by intent. If something was meant to be realistic, it's a sim. This might seem overly simple, but I don't think simulation status necessarily goes away with time. To me it doesn't make sense to call an old sim game or program "arcade/game" just because the field of simulation has progressed.

[outlawal2]

Remember that the A10C was designed as a simulator specifically for use by the US military... IMHO This is a simulator first and a game 2nd.. Obviously there is all kinds of overlap , but my take is a sim first and a game 2nd..

 

That is why it is the only simulator on my machine..

[BlackLion213]

Great topic - I'm sure there will be a broad spectrum of opinions. :)

 

I don't think that "game" and "simulator" are mutually exclusive or opposing terms. Actually, I would describe DCS as both - it is a game that aspires to simulate combat aviation to the fullest extent that is feasible.

 

Whether or not something is a game is really based upon it's use. If you use DCS for true professional training (ie part of a syllabus for UH-1 ground school or refining your control inputs for actually learning to fly that aircraft) then DCS can be used as a simulator for professional training (though perhaps not sanctioned officially, not to mention liability stuff, etc). This what most people think about when using the term simulator - IMHO.

 

However, if you play DCS for entertainment (like me), then it is a game that very closely simulates reality. The same way that going to track days in an open wheel racecar does not necessarily make someone a "racecar driver" - since it is a hobby and not their profession. They are still racing, but the circumstances and intent are different for a hobby.

 

The same goes for DCS in my mind, that doesn't stop me from wanting the most realistic experience possible nor should it diminish the need for realism. But for me, in my circumstances, it is a game....and a simulator. ;)

 

-Nick

[NineLine]

I've come close to really dying in DCS, if you dont listen to the wife and balance real life with DCS it can be more dangerous than flying :)

[Zimmerdylan]

I've come close to really dying in DCS, if you dont listen to the wife and balance real life with DCS it can be more dangerous than flying :)

 

 

I didn't think that anyone would come up with an answer for that, but it's so very, very true.

[Zimmerdylan]

Great topic - I'm sure there will be a broad spectrum of opinions. :)

 

I don't think that "game" and "simulator" are mutually exclusive or opposing terms. Actually, I would describe DCS as both - it is a game that aspires to simulate combat aviation to the fullest extent that is feasible.

 

Whether or not something is a game is really based upon it's use. If you use DCS for true professional training (ie part of a syllabus for UH-1 ground school or refining your control inputs for actually learning to fly that aircraft) then DCS can be used as a simulator for professional training (though perhaps not sanctioned officially, not to mention liability stuff, etc). This what most people think about when using the term simulator - IMHO.

 

However, if you play DCS for entertainment (like me), then it is a game that very closely simulates reality. The same way that going to track days in an open wheel racecar does not necessarily make someone a "racecar driver" - since it is a hobby and not their profession. They are still racing, but the circumstances and intent are different for a hobby.

 

The same goes for DCS in my mind, that doesn't stop me from wanting the most realistic experience possible nor should it diminish the need for realism. But for me, in my circumstances, it is a game....and a simulator. ;)

 

-Nick

 

 

It has been talked about at some point that DCS has actually been used in a training scenario? I know I have heard this somewhere. Maybe on this forum.

[BlackLion213]

If you dont listen to the wife and balance real life with DCS it can be more dangerous than flying :)

 

There is a pretty long list of activities that can be extremely dangerous under these conditions:

 

Kite flying

Phone calls

Power naps

Watching The West Wing

Sitting

Thinking

Reading a book

Looking out the window

Drawing a picture

Attempting casual conversation with a colleague

And of course...anything on a computer ;)

 

-Nick

[gavagai]

For a flight sim like DCS, Game vs. Simulator is a categorical error. Flight sims are a computer game genre among other genres, like first-person shooters, resource strategy games, etc.

 

Some game genres have practical applications. Flight sims can teach you about flight. Fold-it is a game where pure amateurs have solved protein structures that proved intractable for computer algorithms. Right now there is a movement underway to "game-ify" education because we know people are motivated to learn something when it is presented as a game.

[MegOhm_SD]

I've come close to really dying in DCS, if you dont listen to the wife and balance real life with DCS it can be more dangerous than flying :)

 

That is precisely why I will never own Occulus Rift or anything like it. :music_whistling:

[PiedDroit]

IMO DCS is a gaming simulator, it simulates stuff for the purpose of entertainment (gaming).

Some get offended because people call DCS a game, I think they just want to make the distinction between arcade gaming and simulation gaming.

I can tell you that professional pilots don't smile after crashing in a full flight sim, it's not a game for them...

[vicx]

It is a sandbox with simulated elements. Can deliver more game or more simulation depending on what you pursue.

[cichlidfan]

I've come close to really dying in DCS, if you dont listen to the wife and balance real life with DCS it can be more dangerous than flying :)

 

Unfortunately, there are probably plenty of WoW players who could say the same thing. ;)

 

EDIT: Inside the cockpit it is pretty much a simulator, outside, not so much.

[Brisse]

The answer is simple, and I'm surprised so many have trouble to comprehend this. I skimmed through the tread and I see some have already provided it.

 

It's a game. The genre is simulation.

 

Why is it a game you ask? The software is for entertainment purposes, and not for professional use. That means it's a game, no matter how realistic it is.

[Tirak]

DCS is a game, it is meant to be fun. Is it realistic? Yes. But at the end of the day, you play DCS.

[AMEDooley]

The answer is simple, and I'm surprised so many have trouble to comprehend this. I skimmed through the tread and I see some have already provided it.

 

It's a game. The genre is simulation.

 

Why is it a game you ask? The software is for entertainment purposes, and not for professional use. That means it's a game, no matter how realistic it is.

 

I totally agree with this. It is a game, a simulation game, but a game non the less. Now having said that, you can take this flight sim, especially the high fidelity ones (A-10c, MIG-21), and fly them as realistically as possible due to modeling. Which is a lot of fun IMHO. But this is neither our profession, nor used to train us on how to fly the real life versions of these birds.

 

I wouldn't get mad at someone because they called this a game, just as I wouldn't get mad for calling it a sim. It is literally whatever you want it to be. For me, my dream was to be a F/A-18C pilot. The closest I got to that was being a mechanic on them. So because of DCS I can train with other like minded people and fly the A-10C as close as possible to what the real pilots do. And once the F/A-18C is released, I can do the same in that. And I've been in the actual sim for the hornet and I will garuntee that it will be close, but not quite like the actual thing.

[Zimmerdylan]

I have seen people receive a good verbal beating for calling it a game here in these forums.

Many is the poor noob I have seen posting for the first time , calling it a game and then receiving a thrashing because they caught the wrong guy's attention who took serious offense to it. That is not to say that I was trolling when I started the thread. I am just very interested to know what a majority of the people here believe.

But is would seem (after looking at the replies to this thread) that these people are very much in the minority. To me, that is kind of a good thing. I have seen those who take their flight sims much too seriously. I know a few with $10,000 cockpits in their man cave who spend every waking moment transporting virtual cargo all over the globe for the virtual air cargo company that they and their friends created. And....they keep a tight schedule. No one here (to my knowledge anyway) takes it that seriously. The odd part of that scenario to me is that the sims that they use for this aren't half as emmersive and realistic as DCS.

I do remember that more than once it was mentioned about the A10A or C, not sure which was used to train National Guard pilots or something like that. I wish I could find the posts, But I have not read any new comments on it in a while. But there is someone who comes to these threads who thinks it is true. Whether it is or not, I have nooooo clue. I tend to think it's not, but it's fun to think that it is.

[Brisse]

It's okay to take the sim seriously. It is not okay to bash newbies or those that takes it less seriously.

 

Yes, I believe ED provided simulation software of the A-10C for the National Guard, but it's a different version, and it was created with a different intent than the consumer version. It's all about the intended use of the software, not it's level of realism.

[Zimmerdylan]

It's okay to take the sim seriously. It is not okay to bash newbies or those that takes it less seriously.

 

Yes, I believe ED provided simulation software of the A-10C for the National Guard, but it's a different version, and it was created with a different intent than the consumer version. It's all about the intended use of the software, not it's level of realism.

 

Hmm.....I have an A10 pilot for a music student. He has given me some very helpful tips and hints. But he has yet to sit with me and try to fly DCS. He told me that he's not comfortable with it. I get that. I am the same way when people invite me to Karaoke, or especially to play "Rock Band".

If I ever do convince him to sit down and take a flight, I'll definitely share the experience with the forum.

[dotChuckles]

DCS is a game. It's a great game, with depth and complexity. It requires serious commitment to master. But it is a game.

 

To quote the CAA on what qualifies as a simulator...

 

"A FSTD Qualification is based upon an evaluation to establish that the device complies with the technical standards and the Compliance Monitoring System (CMS) requirements of the current regulatory standards, defined in the 'Aircrew Regulation' EU 1178/2011 as amended by EU 290/2012 PART ARA and its associated AMCs & GMs, PART ORA and its associated AMCs & GMs and in the Certification Specifications CS-FSTD A (for aeroplane simulations) and CS-FSTD H (for helicopter simulations)." (link)

 

But in saying that it is a game in no ways belittles the dedication or seriousness of the user.

 

People seem to get insecure about the idea that they are somehow merely playing if you call it a game. This is unnecessary. Likewise people seem to think that their status is elevated above others because they 'use' a simulator. This too is unnecessary as well as being tiresome & unpleasant.

[Grundar]

In the end it's a game. Albeit a very detailed and specific one, but it's a game. DCS does a great job at simulating aircraft it depicts but it's not akin to flying a true military simulator. The game one is much more fun of course and features all those wonderful options games have over simulators - eat chips while you fly, pause the game to go for a wee, alt-tab out and browse forums all from the comfort of your custom setup.

 

It's a wonderful game, I can see why people would get upset about it being called a game - it takes a good amount of dedication and skill to play it even to a satisfactory degree. It has the top notch flight modelling and attention to detail. It still is a game in the end though and I love it.

[Tone71]

For a flight sim like DCS, Game vs. Simulator is a categorical error. Flight sims are a computer game genre among other genres, like first-person shooters, resource strategy games, etc.

 

As others have said, DCS is a computer game but as it is attempting to realistically simulate an experience, in this case flight, it is also a simulator.

gavagai has hit the nail on the head.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Simulator is a genre of computer game. I do not see why people have to try and avoid the title of "game" when it is, blatantly, a game.

 

It's a computer program whose sole purpose for existence is entertainment.

 

It's a game, full stop. You can try and rationalize that it isn't by citing its greater attachment to reality, but in the end it's a program meant for entertainment.

 

It's a game. That's okay.

[piXel496]

DCS does mimic reality and the DCS engine is in use as a training tool to accomplish better results in risky real life environments. We all use DCS as a recreational activity, that makes it a game for us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited December 9, 2015 by piXel496
And that is ok indeed

[msalama]

Once upon a time, I always got upset when someone called DCS a game. I was like "WTF, DCS is the most accurate consumer-level simulator ever, and you call it a mere GAME?!?!?" :D

 

Nowadays, I of course realize that it's actually both - a sim _and_ a game. Can't have one without the other if you want to keep things interesting IMO...