Flight model

[BlackLion213]

Question on landings: Does the Mirage hold the flare automatically by the means of FBW controls? Or is that an something because the EFM is still in its "infancy"?

 

Each time when landing, it seems as if the Mirage holds a flare by itself until the front wheels drop down without me doing anything.... That normal?

 

I'm not sure if it is supposed to hold the flare like that. However, I did some reading back in April (when my Mirage interest was accelerating) that the Mirage 2000 was explicitly designed to have a natural tendency to pitch upward. There were two reasons: to improve ITR in ACM and to reduce takeoff speeds. Apparently, one of the major contributors to the Mirage III's high take-off speed was the fact that actuating the elevators/ailerons effectively reduced the wing area by distorting the airfoil. This meant that wing surface was decreasing as the pilot pitched the aircraft on take-off - lengthening the take-off roll a fair bit. With the Mirage 2000, Dassault deliberately built in a tendency to pitch (as part of it's relaxed stability) so that no control surface deflection would be required to maintain a nose-high position, allowing for lower take-off speeds. That might be why it stays flared...or it's a bug, but there is an explanation in the aircraft's design.

 

Also, concerning the roll rate and crispness, there is a lot of both. The roll does end very abruptly with minimal inertia. On the external view, you can see the control surfaces deflecting opposite the roll when you release the stick (very briefly, but definitely happening). One thing users should do before grabbing their pitchfork is try flying the Mirage with the large, area-ruled wing tanks. It changes the roll behavior and there is more inertia (still crisp, but less so). Also, when you try it, deactivate the G-limiter (because roll rate is automatically limited with these large tanks). With the limiter off, roll rate is close to what you see with a clean aircraft, but there is more roll inertia. Enough that I tend to overshoot by 10-15 deg and find myself adding opposite stick. It's not hugely different, but it is different.

 

Anyway, things might not be right, but they are plausible. We'll see what Captain Smiley thinks when he gets back. There might be some direct references to help settle it if anyone can find some.

 

-Nick

[BlackLion213]

2:50 min, watch as the aircraft rocks ever so slightly after it abruptly stops the roll.

 

aytcwZ75Akk

 

This is definitely a super-responsive aircraft. You've probably watched Tomcat HUD videos as well (?) - the Tomcat has serious roll inertia. :D

 

I can at least say that the roll performance in the DCS Mirage looks close, even if it needs to be a bit less precise.

 

It would be funny if Captain Smiley ended up adding it just to appease us, even if his references contradict it. ;)

 

We'll see what he thinks.

 

-Nick

[Hummingbird]

This is definitely a super-responsive aircraft. You've probably watched Tomcat HUD videos as well (?) - the Tomcat has serious roll inertia. :D

 

I can at least say that the roll performance in the DCS Mirage looks close, even if it needs to be a bit less precise.

 

It would be funny if Captain Smiley ended up adding it just to appease us, even if his references contradict it. ;)

 

We'll see what he thinks.

 

-Nick

 

Indeed. It's a very small amount that needs to be added, just enough to be noticed.

 

It's funny how details that small can affect the immersion, but it does.

 

That having been said I enjoy the module a lot so far, albeit I find the G limiter annoying as it messes with how much pitch I think I should be pulling vs stick deflection :P

[theGozr]

Well what is missing is the relation of the aircraft toward the world air flow friction, air pockets and turbulence , as for now the plane do not react much to the environment and make you think it's way too stiff. A flyby wire do not ovoid the aircraft of this. and it's missing or they must be accentuate. again you can have the best racing car with great racing suspensions but if you ride on a rally / country side bumpy road you'll be feeling it computer assisted or not.. pretty much what is missing a bit as well to the MiG-15 ( stiffness and raw ) well the Mirage do not need more stiffness ( assisted flight ) on the controls but more of what the pilot and aircraft are going through . The MiG-21 is better on simulating the contact with the weather world. this is a great start and need TLC. The cockpit head placement same.

 

FFB is desperately needed..

Edited December 26, 2015 by theGozr

[theGozr]

A very good friend of mine died 8 years go on a test flight in Germany . He was a Mirage 2000 C and D pilot and spent a lot of time to fly them in Africa. ( RIP Gerard )

[NakedSquirrel]

Please guys, tell me if you see inertia here:

 

 

or here

 

 

A far as I'm concerned, pilot's shoulders in the cockpit have more inertia than the plane itself :D

 

Maybe the game needs more head inertia in first person :)

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

roll inertia was the first thing I noted once off the ground, most of us have noticed this on rails feel. think they just need to tune it a bit. but I also am saying the same thing, its going to be a fun module.

 

also after watching the mirage demo I feel even more confident that its pretty close as the thing does look pretty stiff FBW.

Edited December 26, 2015 by =LFC=Chameleon_Silk

[flyingscotsman]

Hi JOJO,

Thank you for the pilot video, beautiful language, so expressive, but tell me how doe the back seat pilot communicate when the trainee cannot see his hands lol , Only joking but that video should be compulsory viewing

merci Bien

[grunf]

Mirage with only one main gear extended (unable to retract due to damage) doesn't have a tendency to roll. Is it because the FBW is compensating or is it a bug?

[syn]

Transonic flight is possible level at medium altitudes with external stores, including fuel tank, at military power. Unlikely in real life.

[Giat]

Just saying,

 

Inertia can not be detected by seeing a video since you dont know when the stick is moved and released ... ( unless you see the stick on the vidéo )

[*Rage*]

Havent tested thoroughly but it seems to retain speèd too much in a turn?

[mjmorrow]

I really like the FM and I think it matches up with videos I have seen of various Mirage 2000 variants. The real Mirage 2000 flies like it is on rails and the roll rate is unbelievably fast, almost looks like the video is moving in fast forward during rolls. This plane variant is not unlike the one that shot down an F-16 during a knife fight in actual, not simulated, combat. A plane that is a threat to a F-16 in a dogfight is bound to have some serious sick moves. I am sure the team will fine tune the FM as they go along, but I am very pleased with their efforts, thus far. :thumbup: MJ

Edited December 26, 2015 by mjmorrow

[Mizzy]

Never flown the Mirage 2000 but have a lot of time on the Mirage III. the Mirage III had selectable FBW in Pitch known as Autocommand. If you landed the aircraft with Autocommand engaged (we wernt meant to) the first clue you got that it was still in was the fact that the aircraft maintained the pitch attitude during the landing roll out until it ran out of lift and the nose drops. So seeing this in the Mir2000 seems logical to me.

 

That's because it's a 'delta wing. This is typical of delta wing airframes..Concorde etc.

 

Mizzy

[jojo]

CaptSmiley already stated that FM needs more work, especially:

- roll rate Vs speed (probably too much in low speed)

- sustained turn rate.

 

Mirage really bleed speed above 15deg AoA however. So at high speed you won't bleed speed immediately.

 

For turbulence:

It may needs refinement, but FBW sensors are mainly accelerometers on all plane's axis.

 

During Rafale development, it was said that a FBW counter-turbulence mode was planned. But it was dropped because FBW did it by design.

 

So up to a point, it's normal for the plane to react to turbulence by itself. It's about cursor setting and refinement, but overall it's good.

Edited December 26, 2015 by jojo

[Angel101]

CaptSmiley already stated that FM needs more work, especially:

- roll rate Vs speed (probably too much in low speed)

- sustained turn rate.

 

Mirage really bleed speed above 15deg AoA however. So at high speed you won't bleed speed immediately.

 

For turbulence:

It may needs refinement, but FBW sensors are mainly accelerometers on all plane's axis.

 

During Rafale development, it was said that a FBW counter-turbulence mode was planned. But it was dropped because FBW did it by design.

 

So up to a point, it's normal for the plane to react to turbulence by itself. It's about cursor setting and refinement, but overall it's good.

 

Well, we can add to the list of things to polish the acceleration of that bird, maybe it has an overpowered plant, maybe there is a lack of weight or drag.

[jojo]

Yes that too.

 

People must understand that he needs to adjust thrust and drag on clean aircraft, and then stores. So it's heavy job.

[OnlyforDCS]

Transonic flight is possible level at medium altitudes with external stores, including fuel tank, at military power. Unlikely in real life.

 

What do you mean exactly? Do you mean that the aircraft can supercruise? (Mach 1.0+ without afterburner). I didn't find this to be the case. If you drop afterburners you will slowly lose speed until you drop below Mach 1, however it does do that very slowly and that is a feature of delta winged aircraft which are very low drag and efficient when flying in a straight line.

[GGTharos]

It is a feature if thrust vs drag, and the thrust is way too high. Drag may also be a bit too low, but hard to tell.

 

Consider that AB gives you about twice the thrust of MIL for arguments sake ... Shouldn't you slow down faster than you sped up?

 

Or at least at a similar rate.

[Zeus67]

Just to let you know that we are listening to you and we will review the FM to check on your concerns. Please be aware that it is possible that the aircraft is behaving as it should, as opposed to as how you believe it should behave. But we will check and fix what needs to be fixed, if any.

[BlackLion213]

The cockpit head placement same.

 

BTW, you can adjust the seat height, which helps the issue a bit, at least for me. (LShift+S for up and LShift+LAlt+S for down)

 

However, it would be nice if the seat adjustment were a bit slower or more progressive. Would allow the user to find just the right height.

 

-Nick

[Fab]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible. The flight surfaces have their limits. They should not be able to bring a plane at full roll to a full roll stop in miliseconds.

 

This is the only big issue I have with the flight model. Other than this it all feels good. I hope they fix this because it is destroys all the immersion for me..

 

your wrong, and perhaps because you never flowen a real plane...

Mirage 2000 is FBW and can do it, if you look at vidios with arobatic prop flyers, even they do it...

[Ultra]

Just to let you know that we are listening to you and we will review the FM to check on your concerns. Please be aware that it is possible that the aircraft is behaving as it should, as opposed to as how you believe it should behave. But we will check and fix what needs to be fixed, if any.

 

Thanks for the response Zeus.

[Aginor]

What do you mean exactly? Do you mean that the aircraft can supercruise? (Mach 1.0+ without afterburner). I didn't find this to be the case. If you drop afterburners you will slowly lose speed until you drop below Mach 1, however it does do that very slowly and that is a feature of delta winged aircraft which are very low drag and efficient when flying in a straight line.

 

Yes it can supercruise at the moment in DCSW.

Configuration to reproduce:

- Nevada map, start from Groom Lake AFB

- Full fuel, centerline fuel tank, no other stores

- takeoff and climb to 14,000 ft.

- go to mil power (98-99%), check light "PC" (afterburner) is off.

 

I could reach Mach 1.02 that way.

[Zeus67]

Yes it can supercruise at the moment in DCSW.

Configuration to reproduce:

- Nevada map, start from Groom Lake AFB

- Full fuel, centerline fuel tank, no other stores

- takeoff and climb to 14,000 ft.

- go to mil power (98-99%), check light "PC" (afterburner) is off.

 

I could reach Mach 1.02 that way.

 

The aircraft has a tendency to go into afterburners without the PC light turning on. Specially if the power is in the 98-99% range.

 

Do not check the light, check the fuel rate. It climbs from 60-70 to over 100, indicating AB.

 

It is an annoying bug that we haven't been able to completely squash. Something about the AB threshold not obeying the boundaries set for it.