Cannons Damage

[otto]

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Above is damage model in game in one of my few flights. Min 1.22 min 2.00.

 

 

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Above we can see Mirage 3 gun camera footage in six days war, yom kipur .....

 

 

Guns are too weak in game imo.

Edited December 27, 2015 by otto

[Angel101]

Guns are too weak? or AI is too strong? Have you tried that on a human controlled aircraft?

[WR269]

I took on an A10 yesterday and had no problem depriving him of his entire wing, don't forget you are also limited to the damage model of your victim

 

 

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[mattebubben]

The guns do to little dmg.

 

Ive tried with a friend.

 

It in no way comes close to what those 30mm shells should do.

 

Id say they feel less powerfull then the 23mm on the mig-21.

 

Even with repeated hits you might do no serious dmg.

 

When even as little as 3-5 rounds hitting should do massive dmg.

 

You should not need 20+ rounds to hit a fighter sized target to knock it out...

 

And yes you can kill with it and you might even manage to kill somone with only 6-10 hits but not realiably.

 

And those 30mm rounds should be devestating.

 

Each round is a bit smaller but you have 2 cannons instead of one.

 

It should be more devestating then the gun on the Mig-29/Su-27.

 

But it feels much weaker.

Edited December 27, 2015 by mattebubben

[LuSi_6]

address this to ED, same for Missle performance. Gun dmg is a general topic, see 37mm canon on the MiG-15...

[WinterH]

I've tried guns on AI, human aircraft and also some ground targets, with similar results. Well I wouldn't say entirely anemic but, they didn't feel like 30mm either.

 

Also, I think guns are loaded entirely with HE shells currently.

 

I am unfortunately unable to so myself today but, may be someone who has free time available can look up typical ammo mix used in DEFA cannons, and look up HE and AP projectile weights, explosive fillings, muzzle energy etc and compare them to already estabilished stuff in DCS like Russian 30mm rounds in Gsh-30 cannons. This way we can provide RAZBAM with a baseline to look into if guns really are weak, so they can adjust.

 

Edit : Just a very quick wikipedia look up for both Gsh-30-1 and DEFA says that Russian 30mm round is larger (as in larger case for more propellant), Gsh-30-1 has slightly more muzzle velocity and higher fire rate. But, Mirage has two of those guns. Anyways for more meaningful comparison, we probably should try to find individual ammo types and their respective muzzle velocities, projectile weights, and for explosive ones amount of filling in them.

Edited December 27, 2015 by WinterH

[Whuping]

I dunno bout you guys, but I've been doing pretty decent with the Guns on the Mirage. Are you guys managing to like land at least 5 - 10 shells on the intended target?

 

I manage to do a strafing run on a Mig-21 unknown to my presence - manage to land at least 3 hits on the body of his aircraft and he went straight to the ground.

[otto]

With threads like this appear a lot of mouth heroes :

 

"O my god i just can just shoot the crap out of the other planes with these cannons.(I'm such a good shot)". Even if the cannons had the power of 50 caliber mgs you would still be able to shoot down planes.

But you can do that even in a 1998 game.

 

For example i got 61 hits on a p51 :

 

 

Of course i could shoot down a p51 with less shots. But the fact that you can put 60 30mm rounds in a p51 is absurd.Even 10 is too much.

 

The thing is i'm going to fly online mostly mig21 so i can't say it's going to make a big difference to me if the damage model stays the same.But i'm just trying to make the simulation more accurate.

Edited December 27, 2015 by otto

[Foka1]

Confirm weak guns on bot MiG-21, had same hits in his tail and engine and he didn't give a sh*** about it.

[dartuil]

I confirm!

Cant kill mig-23 in dogfight instant action in 1.5.

[Rlaxoxo]

I agree guns seam weak for 30mm I've had couple of duels with the guns and while sometimes they can blow a wing off if hit in proper place most of the time it does singicifantly lower damage then expected.

 

Maybe it shouldn't do the same damage as SU-27 30mm sure but not this weak they feel off and watching that mirage gun camera video it doesn't represent mirage guns in DCS

[dartuil]

Men we shoot 2x30mm not one time 30mm that should cut any fighter.

[PiedDroit]

Note that the 30mm ammo used for DEFA-554 gun (Mirage) is much smaller than the one used for the Gsh-30-1 (Su-27) or the GAU-8 (A-10).

DEFA-554: 30mm x 113 mm

Gsh-30-1: 30 x 165 mm

GAU-8: 30 x 173 mm

Note that a 20mm as used by M61 is 20 × 102 mm.

 

I don't have the figures at hand (velocities, weights) but the size of the round should give you an idea of it's power, in terms of propellant quantity and shell weight.

On a personal note, I agree it feels weak, but... Maybe that's how it is, I'm no expert.

 

Edit: On the instant action dogfight (on all 3 targets), depending on how I manage to hit I get either a scratch, engine fire or a wing off, with the same kind of burst (2x5 rounds I'd say). As someone said, this might be linked to target damage model.

Edited December 28, 2015 by PiedDroit

[Deezle]

I'm less than thrilled with a lot of the weapons/damage modeling in DCS but I've found the cannons in the M2000 seem to do the job pretty consistently for me *shrug*

[Cletust8]

Note that the 30mm ammo used for DEFA-554 gun (Mirage) is much smaller than the one used for the Gsh-30-1 (Su-27) or the GAU-8 (A-10).

DEFA-554: 30mm x 113 mm

Gsh-30-1: 30 x 165 mm

GAU-8: 30 x 173 mm

Note that a 20mm as used by M61 is 20 × 102 mm.

 

I don't have the figures at hand (velocities, weights) but the size of the round should give you an idea of it's power, in terms of propellant quantity and shell weight.

On a personal note, I agree it feels weak, but... Maybe that's how it is, I'm no expert.

 

Edit: On the instant action dogfight (on all 3 targets), depending on how I manage to hit I get either a scratch, engine fire or a wing off, with the same kind of burst (2x5 rounds I'd say). As someone said, this might be linked to target damage model.

 

Smaller by almost a third, less mass, less explosives, less joules on the target.

[Whuping]

Have you guys tried against Player Pilots?

 

AI Pilots can compensate damage far better than Player Pilots can. I literally shot a Su-27 with an AIM-9 and he lost all Ailerons and a Rudder and still manage to dogfight against me.

 

Whereas in an Online Match - I've literally tapped a player with cannons on his elevator and he flipped and lost control almost instantly.

[OnlyforDCS]

Have you guys tried against Player Pilots?

 

AI Pilots can compensate damage far better than Player Pilots can. I literally shot a Su-27 with an AIM-9 and he lost all Ailerons and a Rudder and still manage to dogfight against me.

 

Whereas in an Online Match - I've literally tapped a player with cannons on his elevator and he flipped and lost control almost instantly.

 

This. Still, there is no reason why the damage model can't be improved with regards to AI too. Despite what we may think most DCS players hardly ever venture online.

[Rlaxoxo]

Have you guys tried against Player Pilots?

 

AI Pilots can compensate damage far better than Player Pilots can. I literally shot a Su-27 with an AIM-9 and he lost all Ailerons and a Rudder and still manage to dogfight against me.

 

Whereas in an Online Match - I've literally tapped a player with cannons on his elevator and he flipped and lost control almost instantly.

 

Yes I have and it got the same results I shot a 1-2 sec burst on him he's still fine even tho all the bullets hit.

 

It can still happen that they die in that burst but doesn't happen that often

[PiedDroit]

Have you guys tried against Player Pilots?

Good point, I should try that.

[Jansgi]

I played online with MiG-21s vs Mirages and shot 3 MiGs down with guns. Each one needed only one quick burst that hit and they were unable to fight. Two of em' crashed and one probably lost it's engine as it crash landed.

[nervousenergy]

I don't think RAZBAM or any other third party can do anything about the damage model, other than provide the textures and graphics for what the damage looks like. Pretty sure we've got to keep pestering ED.

 

The damage effects throughout the sim need a lot of work, especially in AI. Modern jets simply aren't designed to take a hit, with the notable exception of the A-10. Especially a 30mm hit. The relatively smaller shells of the Mirage will result in somewhat less kinetic energy than A-10 or Su-27, but this is a silly distinction in the context of what it takes to knock one down. Even a .50 cal hole just about anywhere on a modern jet will damage something important. The dinner plate+ sized hole one 30mm round will inflict would be instantly catastrophic.

 

The gun camera footage in the OP provides good evidence of this. A burst on target didn't result in the plane being 'unable to fight', or crash landing, or trailing smoke while trying to get away... it resulted in the aircraft instantly turning into a fireball.

Edited December 28, 2015 by nervousenergy

[Flagrum]

According to the LUAs, the DEFA-554 (by ED) used by the M2KC currently fires only AP-T amunition without any explosives in DCS:W.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Flagrum

[Azrayen]

According to the LUAs, the DEFA-554 (by ED) used by the M2KC currently fires only AP-T amunition without any explosives in DCS:W.

 

Ah, well, that might be a good lead to understand (and hopefully solve) the problem.

 

AFAIK, there exist (IRL) 3 types of "war" rounds for the DEFA 554 (I won't mention training rounds here, that's not the topic):

OMEI

OPIT

OAPEI

 

In each of this rounds names, you have the letter "I" that means Incendiary.

So even the AP one (the OPIT) should have some incendiary power.

 

I don't know if the rounds are mixed on a same flight (like on the A-10C) or not.

 

OMEI is high explosive - incendiary

OPIT is armor piercing - incendiary

OAPEI is anti-infantry - explosive - incendiary.

 

My guess is the OMEI is probably the best choice for air-to-air missions, the other two being more suitable against hardened and soft targets respectively.

 

++

Az'

[jojo]

You are missing the OSPEI

Obus Semi-Perforant Explosif Incendiaire.

SAPHEI in English.

 

http://preprod.nexter-group.fr/fr/produits/item/145-ospei-f7670-munitions-de-30-mm-x-113b-pour-canon-30defa

 

It's probably the most well suited for air combat.

 

http://www.ordtech-industries.com/2products/Ammunition/Medium/30x113.html

Edited April 7, 2016 by jojo

[Azrayen]

You are missing the OSPEI

Obus Semi-Perforant Explosif Incendiaire.

SAPHEI in English.

Indeed. Thanks.

 

It's probably the most well suited for air combat.

Not according to the french MoD.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/mediatheque/carnet-de-vol/les-campagnes-de-tir-air-sol

or this.

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/11160-fiction-op%C3%A9ration-mousquetaire-un-raid-de-rafales/?page=2

 

Apparently, OPIT is replaced by OSPEI.

OMEI is still used for air-to-air. The "M" (mine) is a self-destruct feature if the round didn't encounter any target after a given [time] [i guess]

 

On the Rafale, OSPEI only (this one tends to become the "classic" choice indeed): https://forum.aviationsmilitaires.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=174&p=144129#p144111

Edited April 7, 2016 by Azrayen