[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[Nedum]

I think that this problem has something to do with this strange haze overall. This haze seems to be a "tool" for the new LOD system.

I never saw so much "fog" like in the new 1.5 DCS World. In 2.0 there isn't any haze/fog.

The fog thing seems to be a layer which gives all other models a grey painting.

That a "large" model suddenly disapear if it comes closer has (as I see it) something to do with this ugly painting.

The same for ALL ground objects.

 

One old screens 1.2.6:

 

 

 

Some new ones 1.5.x:

 

 

 

 

 

If you make this pictures full screen you can clearly see how many details will get lost because of this extreme ugly fog/haze and even with SweetFX the haze is still there. Not so extreme but you can't get it away like in this old screen shot 1.2.6:

 

 

Try to get such a clear view in the new engine. Good luck. You will never get it because it seems to be a shader problem!

You can "sweetfx" like hell and you still have to stay with this ugly haze! No so much anymore but you will never get such a good view as with the old engine!

Edited December 30, 2015 by Nedum

[SharpeXB]

One thing I discovred aften starting to ude Oculus is, that The zoom option, is The greatest cheat of Them all.....

With Zoom you Can zoom in like you have monucolos attached to your forhead

Explaination here about why there is a Zoom View in flight sims

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2561114&postcount=220

[Why485]

While many are happy to the smart scaling feature, I am not so much.

 

In lowest values it does improve the speed to spot aircraft in dogfight, but it same time makes game very laggy as it starts drawing all ground vehicles at max drawing distance.

 

And the worst thing is, without any scaling I can spot C-130 size aircraft from about 15km distance, a F-15C or even F-5E size aircraft I can spot from 8km distance when sky is at background, without using any zoom or other things.

Ground vehicles like BTR-80 or ZSU-23-4 is easy to spot from 10-12km distance without any aids, and that renders the whole flying little cheating because they actually are like balls in billiard table, you can not miss those.

 

Then when taking the smart scale in use, FPS drops and I can only spot the vehicles from 4-8km range and then they are so huge that they are like christmas lighted trucks in pitch black night.

 

 

So something needs to be done, and that something is that the engine still needs to be reworked. There needs to be something to be done for vehicles etc. A stationary ground vehicle should be impossible to be spotted from until 1-1.5km distance when next to semi-clear background. Somekind blending should be applied that would hide the ground vehicles hidden next to trees/grass etc.

 

The model visibility setting does not draw planes/vehicles any further or more often than it already does. If you can see a model's sprite, the engine would have already been drawing it regardless of what model visibility setting you use.

 

I've heard some say that are some issues with either AMD or Crossfire/SLI configurations that are causing performance issues, that may be what you're talking about in terms of FPS drop.

 

There are all kinds of opinions on how well spotting works without any option on, and I fall squarely on the "it's unrealistically difficult" side. The problem is that everybody has a different baseline of both conception (i.e. I think it should be harder) and perception (i.e. I play 4k and I can see just fine).

 

I don't think anybody denies that the current system isn't perfect, but it's still a hell of a lot better than the 1.2 "dark ages." Unfortunately it's basically disabled across all servers at this point for multiple reasons, one of which being the resolution thing which is a completely fixable problem. We can't even begin to discuss what's realistic or not when everybody is seeing something different.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Why485

[Kobradelta1000]

I made a video today, on that i saw a disappearing ship-

 

watch this- starts at 1:38, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUkf3TlJwAw1:38

the very next scene shows the ship i hit at ~1:45.. it isn´t there- seconds later it reappeared (1:56 per F4 view)... strange things going in the black sea....

 

Beside that, the last one i attacked was the most far away and didn´t disappear at all....

Edited December 30, 2015 by Kobradelta1000

[Rain]

Visibility

 

When model enlargement was introduced it was a massive improvement because it fixed planes that were invisible. It was so good I had a blast playing DCS world, I was locking F-15s with helmet mount in my Su-27 and now is back to the old stuff, empty sky... Model enlargement is not working, cannot spot anything far nor close. I am pretty sure I am not blind, but the game wants me to be... Even in WW2 planes I keep losing visual contact with the enemy, even when he is on my tail, its very frustrating. I am not new to flight simming I have been doing this for a very long time and I can tell this is a huge deal.

 

Is there any news when will this be fixed, and stay fixed? I miss flying.

Edited January 8, 2016 by 5./JG11_Rain

[SharpeXB]

Even in WW2 planes I keep losing visual contact with the enemy, even when he is on my tail, its very frustrating.

At that range your ability to see other aircraft has nothing to do with the Model Enlargement setting. They're too close to you to be affected.

[Rain]

At that range your ability to see other aircraft has nothing to do with the Model Enlargement setting. They're too close to you to be affected.

 

Yet again, it was possible to see them... now its not, the sky is always empty now, or when you finally spot a plane close to you with your eyes 5 cm from the screen, the plane magically disappears from the screen again

Edited January 8, 2016 by 5./JG11_Rain

[Why485]

When model enlargement was introduced it was a massive improvement because it fixed planes that were invisible. It was so good I had a blast playing DCS world, I was locking F-15s with helmet mount in my Su-27 and now is back to the old stuff, empty sky... Model enlargement is not working, cannot spot anything far nor close. I am pretty sure I am not blind, but the game wants me to be... Even in WW2 planes I keep losing visual contact with the enemy, even when he is on my tail, its very frustrating. I am not new to flight simming I have been doing this for a very long time and I can tell this is a huge deal.

 

Is there any news when will this be fixed, and stay fixed? I miss flying.

 

The settings have changed dramatically through the patches. Right now the visibility imposters on all settings except the largest are smaller than they've ever been.

 

On top of that, all servers now (in a very unwieldy way) enforce a model visibility setting, with most of them just defaulting to off. So even if you had yours set to large, you won't see anything anyway.

 

Honestly, I've basically stopped playing DCS at this point. It is so crushing to see one of the longest standing problems in DCS finally be fixed, and then for the fix to effectively be removed. I can only hope that ED will continue to tweak it, maybe even actually fix it, but now that it's been pushed to live I wouldn't count on it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Why485

[Maverick Su-35S]

Something happened since 1.5.1 or 1.5.0, where with model enlargement set to SMALL and not more, you were able to spot any type of air or ground unit from more realistic distances (perhaps even greater than realistic), but something changed since 1.5.2 and made it almost impossible to spot aircraft (the ground units appear clearly visible though) once you reach the distance from where the visual model transfers from 3D to that 2D like shape, that's where things go weird and the aircraft disappears completely just to reappear into a big ugly dot, then to re-disappear and stuff like that. The SMALL value doesn't make any difference from NONE, the MEDIUM is kind of still not enough to help you spot the target although you look in it's direction and when it appears it's kind of exaggerated in dimensions, while the LARGE value is too exaggerated anyway.

 

By knowing how it was made in 1.5.1, it should be brought back cause it was very good (almost perfect) in comparison to what it's now!

[Rain]

So they really do not care about this issue? I had a blast, along with people who flew with me, when we could finally see stuff in the game. And now it just makes me dont want to fly any more, because in all situations I find myself in the air, the game makes me semi-blind, the sky is always empty. Thats a damn shame because this is one of the best flight simms for us who loves that kind of stuff (flight sims), and to see this issue holding back its potential is just a big bad mistake. I have found myself in many conversations with people on various teamspeak channels saying the same, and more than half of these guys don't fly anymore including me because of this issue.

 

To be honest they shouldn't waste time creating PFM for Su 33 or new external models, because this bug is far more important. If Su33 and MiG-29 3d model could wait 10 years it could wait another 10, not being able to see anything is far more unpleasant than 3d model of MiG-29 which is not bad we are used to it anyway...

Edited January 9, 2016 by 5./JG11_Rain

[sirscorpion]

The visibility is very in-consistent at the moment, at long range where i should be seeing a dot, I can see a full profile of an aircraft depending on aspect i can ID them from a very long distance.

 

AT close range under 3 NM, it goes to its original model, it seems that or feels like it really blends with the texture around it, I start seeing the blend more so after the last visibility change mainly to the fact that ground targets now are impossible to find when they are in normal size.

 

I some times got lock with the su-25T targeting system, but i cant see any thing on the screen it self aside from what looks like a shadow some times, and nothing the other times. it feels like a step back on the ground side from what it was before EDGE.

 

I think the LOD/3D size, model of object at 5NM should be re considered.

[Why485]

The visibility is very in-consistent at the moment, at long range where i should be seeing a dot, I can see a full profile of an aircraft depending on aspect i can ID them from a very long distance.

 

AT close range under 3 NM, it goes to its original model, it seems that or feels like it really blends with the texture around it, I start seeing the blend more so after the last visibility change mainly to the fact that ground targets now are impossible to find when they are in normal size.

 

I some times got lock with the su-25T targeting system, but i cant see any thing on the screen it self aside from what looks like a shadow some times, and nothing the other times. it feels like a step back on the ground side from what it was before EDGE.

 

I think the LOD/3D size, model of object at 5NM should be re considered.

 

This is because the whole system is based on pixel sizes. It's a very simplistic system that makes for exactly the kind of unintuitive behavior you're talking about. The system needs to be just a little more complex than it is now. I've made many posts in the past on how to expand the system to make it into something very good.

 

1. Make the imposters the same apparent size regardless of resolution. You can't even begin to discuss what looks realistic when everybody is seeing different sized imposters.
   
2. Separate values for ground and air targets. Right now, settings that work well for air targets make ground targets too visible.
   
3. Imposters should fade with distance in a much smarter way. Right now, the alphaExp setting is more like a minimum alpha that reaches its minimum value around 1km, which is fairly useless. The way I would do this, is have a minimum distance (in meters) at which the imposter is opaque, and then a maximum distance (in meters) at which the imposter then becomes fully transparent. A smarter system would prevent targets at 40km being easier to see than targets at 10km.
   

 

And then, stuff that's not required, but would be nice:

 

• Ideally, I'd prefer if this was a non-optional system that could not be turned on/off. It would just be set to something realistic and be non-editable.
  
• If it MUST remain an option, it should be exposed to mission editors. Right now, the mission saves whatever your current setting is and uses that. This is not made apparent anywhere.
  
• If this remains an optional setting, you should be able to see what setting a server is running before joining it.
  

Edited January 9, 2016 by Why485

[Why485]

Something happened since 1.5.1 or 1.5.0, where with model enlargement set to SMALL and not more, you were able to spot any type of air or ground unit from more realistic distances (perhaps even greater than realistic), but something changed since 1.5.2 and made it almost impossible to spot aircraft (the ground units appear clearly visible though) once you reach the distance from where the visual model transfers from 3D to that 2D like shape, that's where things go weird and the aircraft disappears completely just to reappear into a big ugly dot, then to re-disappear and stuff like that. The SMALL value doesn't make any difference from NONE, the MEDIUM is kind of still not enough to help you spot the target although you look in it's direction and when it appears it's kind of exaggerated in dimensions, while the LARGE value is too exaggerated anyway.

 

By knowing how it was made in 1.5.1, it should be brought back cause it was very good (almost perfect) in comparison to what it's now!

 

Like I mentioned before, the values for the imposters changed dramatically through the patches. Here's a changelog of the imposter settings throughout the patches:

 

The values are listed as such: maxsize/minsize/alphaExp

 

Minsize is the smallest the imposter can get on screen. This is the most obvious in function. The higher the value, the bigger stuff will look when far away. This value is measured in pixels.

 

AlphaExp is a transparency. The higher the value, the more transparent, and thus the harder to see the object is. A value of 0 means a black object is almost completely black at a distance.

 

Maxsize is a little more complicated to explain, and less obvious in its effects. It's both the size an object needs to be for it to switch to an imposter, and the size at which the imposter itself is rendered, and then scaled down based on distance. This value is measured in pixels.

 

1.5.0:

 

Normal 12.0/3.0/0.5

Enlarged 12.0/5.0/0.25

 

1.5.1:

 

Small: 20.0/6.0/0.0

Medium: 20.0/8.0/0.0

Large: 20.0/10.0/0.0

 

1.5.2/2.0:

 

Small: 2.0/4.0/0.75

Medium: 4.0/6.0/0.5

Large: 7.0/8.0/0.15

 

What's important to note about 1.5.2/2.0 is that the maxsize is unusually low in all settings. This is why, despite the minsize being generally larger than 1.5.0's settings, things are much harder to see in 1.5.2. Having such a small maxsize that's also lower than minsize is also the reason why imposters seem so inconsistent now. They seem to change size and shape much more dramatically than they should. This is because with so few pixels to work with, the imposters are basically being drawn as literal lines and dots rather than things that resembles planes or tanks.

 

It's also worth mentioning that the only change to the system itself between 1.5.0 and now (as in, engine/rendering level changes) has been enabling the imposter system for missiles in 1.5.2 and 2.0. Other than that, the system driving this whole thing has gone completely unchanged since its initial implementation, which is unfortunate because tweaking these settings can only get you so far. There are no settings that can fix the inherent drawbacks with a 100% pixel size based system. The simple addition of the imposter being modified based on its distance to the camera (which is info it already has because alphaExp compares it against a hardcoded range value), would be a game changer and solve so many issues.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

On top of that, all servers now (in a very unwieldy way) enforce a model visibility setting, with most of them just defaulting to off.

That's unfortunate but not unexpected. If the end result of this feature is that all the servers have it switched off, then there wasn't any point in creating it.

[Maverick Su-35S]

Did any of you try to modify a value in the impostors.lua file and see what happens?

 

Something's strange cause no matter what value you try to modify and no matter what amount, after saving the file and try seeing any difference in the game, all objects appear as if the model enlargement is set to NONE. I tried setting a different value at options then re-putting the value that I modified and still the objects appear like there's no more model enlargement or as if the file would be compromised. Even if you put back the original values back, it still doesn't want to work anymore! So the impostors.lua is like a virgin..., cause once touched, it's not recognizable anymore! Weird!

Edited January 10, 2016 by Maverick Su-35S

[Shahdoh]

On the Virtual Aerobatic server, we have since changed the setting to Large on the server machine (1.5.2). Users are now able to see that setting, or any lesser setting they choose on their client.

[Why485]

Did any of you try to modify a value in the impostors.lua file and see what happens?

 

Something's strange cause no matter what value you try to modify and no matter what amount, after saving the file and try seeing any difference in the game, all objects appear as if the model enlargement is set to NONE. I tried setting a different value at options then re-putting the value that I modified and still the objects appear like there's no more model enlargement or as if the file would be compromised. Even if you put back the original values back, it still doesn't want to work anymore! So the impostors.lua is like a virgin..., cause once touched, it's not recognizable anymore! Weird!

 

You can modify it just fine, at least in singleplayer. I did it yesterday to test something.

 

Are you trying this on a multiplayer server? If they have it set to none you're not going to see anything no matter what you put in there.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Why485

[Raptorx7]

Has ED said anything about fixing this problem?

 

I too thought the model visibility in 1.5 originally was great but now I have some serious trouble seeing contacts even on large.

[Why485]

On the Virtual Aerobatic server, we have since changed the setting to Large on the server machine (1.5.2). Users are now able to see that setting, or any lesser setting they choose on their client.

 

Are you sure? I just logged onto the server and it looks like it's off.

 

Did you re-save the mission after you changed the setting? The setting is saved into the mission file the same as all the other difficulty options like G-Force effects. As far as I know, it's not something that's applied just because you have your computer set one way or the other. If you saved the mission with a value of Off, but you host the mission with your options saying Large, it'll still be off.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

I worry that the effect of having this setting is that it will be very fragmenting to multiplayer. It will be confusing for players that different servers run different settings.

Even if you play MP only occasionally I would think that keeping consistent settings in the game is something everyone prefers especially with something as important as visibility.

[Shahdoh]

Are you sure? I just logged onto the server and it looks like it's off.

 

Did you re-save the mission after you changed the setting? The setting is saved into the mission file the same as all the other difficulty options like G-Force effects. As far as I know, it's not something that's applied just because you have your computer set one way or the other. If you saved the mission with a value of Off, but you host the mission with your options saying Large, it'll still be off.

 

Have looked at the mission settings, and have not seen this setting there. Only other place is the client setting. I made the change and had others confirm that it was working. So, no clue as to whats up now. If you know what the setting is in the mission, please, point me to it and will look again.

 

Thanks

[gavagai]

So they really do not care about this issue? I had a blast, along with people who flew with me, when we could finally see stuff in the game. And now it just makes me dont want to fly any more

 

I'm also leaving DCS in the hangar until this is sorted. It was great in 1.5. in 1.5.2 it's terrible. I was flying another sim today and it was just amazing how clearly you can make out other aircraft at all ranges.

[Maverick Su-35S]

You can modify it just fine, at least in singleplayer. I did it yesterday to test something.

 

Are you trying this on a multiplayer server? If they have it set to none you're not going to see anything no matter what you put in there.

 

Yes, in singleplayer...! I've loaded a mission of mine, I've re-saved it just in case it might need to be re-saved if the model enlargement has been modified and no matter what I try, the modification doesn't occur, instead the model enlargement no longer seems to function in game, although at options you can choose between different values, none have any more effect during gameplay. Only after I put the original file back, it works again and once I modify a value by a tiny bit, it behaves like it doesn't have any more effect. Don't know how you managed to modify the file (I guess you used notepad) and change a value as you desired and noticed the change during gameplay, but I'm glad at least it works for someone else!

[Frostie]

I don't understand this model enlargement business, what are we wanting to achieve here. Seeing blobs from over 15km away is plain daft, the real issue(even before the imposter) has always been within the approx. 3-6km range when models are near impossible to see from some angles, this has nothing to do with the imposter size and everything to do with texture.

 

Just flying against Mirages it becomes apparent that the Mirage has a near invisible model at certain angles at these ranges. I want to see bandits where it matters not at ranges then lose them when they get close.

[Wolf Rider]

I don't understand this model enlargement business, what are we wanting to achieve here. Seeing blobs from over 15km away is plain daft, the real issue(even before the imposter) has always been within the approx. 3-6km range when models are near impossible to see from some angles, this has nothing to do with the imposter size and everything to do with texture.

 

Just flying against Mirages it becomes apparent that the Mirage has a near invisible model at certain angles at these ranges. I want to see bandits where it matters not at ranges then lose them when they get close.

 

unfortunately, what you're complaining about shouldn't be happening is what happens in real life