[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[Dutchy93]

Wolf what you say may be true to a degree. My experience in DCS 1.2.xxxxxxx is that I can barely see planes in WVR if they are flying straight in front of me.

The moment I see them is when I am about 2 km away from them in the best of cases.

If they fly anywhere below me I can barely see them, if I even manage that.

In 1.5 I could actually see an enemy WVR without needing radar to tell and guide me to them.

I get that we don't need big red blobs screaming "Here I Am!" but some help is needed.

I hate to draw a comparison here, but in an older game, IL-2 1946, I could see aircraft and ground units that got within about 5-10 kilometers of me.

It was not that clear, you could still hide in the ground and you were not highlighted so people could see you across the map. Overall is was not that easy to spot anything, but it was managable. In DCS I feel almost blind without spamming radar and WVR lock buttons.

 

Now I am flying on a 15 inch laptop screen so I see less per standard.

I don't have the luxury of a big screen, which may or may not help out.

 

Till this is fixed I am stuck with flying with labels, which I tend to avoid.

[OnlyforDCS]

That's unfortunate but not unexpected. If the end result of this feature is that all the servers have it switched off, then there wasn't any point in creating it.

 

You got exactly what you wanted SharpeXB! Even before the setting was ever implemented you were pushing for ED to drop it. Well now I guess congratulations are in order, because by actively pushing for a server side setting the whole thing has completely lost any meaning or value.

Edited January 12, 2016 by OnlyforDCS

[SharpeXB]

Now I am flying on a 15 inch laptop screen so I see less per standard.

I don't have the luxury of a big screen, which may or may not help out.

 

Till this is fixed I am stuck with flying with labels, which I tend to avoid.

Sorry but your hardware is more the problem than the game. Although the game can always use improvement, having a certain level of hardware is essential for playing it without icons. Probably a 24" 1080p screen minimum.

 

You got exactly what you wanted SharpeXB! Even before the setting was ever implemented you were pushing for ED to drop it. Well now I guess congratulations are in order, because by actively pushing for a server side setting the whole thing has completely lost any meaning or value.

No actually that's not what I wanted if you go back and read my posts.

The best solution for this would simply be baked right into the game and not be user adjustable or look odd or be unrealistic. Then there would be no setting to enforce.

But to me at least it was obvious from the beginning that a setting like this would just get disabled in multiplayer and that was part of my concerns.

Edited January 13, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Maverick Su-35S]

On the 5th page here I've posted that if you'd try to modify the impostors.lua file the game won't recognize the model enlargement effect anymore...! Well guess what, I've tested to see what happens if I don't modify the file at all and simply open the original/ontouched one with notepad on Windows 10 and just save it (CTRL+S) without touching anything. After simply saving the file, without any kind of modifications I saw that the size of it had changed for no logical reason. The original file has 1020 bytes, but after you open it with notepad and save it with no modifications it will have 1023 bytes although it's content is exactly the original and apparently after this happens, the game no longer recognizes the file. Don't know why this happens..., if it's only me, then probably my Windows 10 notepad is doing something weird when it saves the file.

 

I just want to play with those values in it a little bit until I can find the lowest possible values for the size of the enlarged model while still being able to spot the target from realistic distances for a naked eye, but I can't find a way around the file saving issue. Any clues?

 

Thanks!

[Dutchy93]

Sorry but your hardware is more the problem than the game. Although the game can always use improvement, having a certain level of hardware is essential for playing it without icons. Probably a 24" 1080p screen minimum.

 

I think it highly unlikely for any developer to create a game that can only effectively (read visibility for units) be played with a big TV screen as monitor.

Not everyone has the luxury or funds for that. If they did the budget players would've thrown DCS out the window for that so to speak.

Besides a laptop screen should be more than enough to play.

And your point is right. Make the model setting fixed in the game and not optional in multiplayer, but in such a way that everyone benefits from it.

 

Ps: My 15.6" screen has a 1080p resolution so that shouldn't be any issue. And my laptop can run the new DCS on High settings with ease. Just saying.

[kobac]

I do not know whether the visibility of armored and mechanized vehicles broke down due to the 3D model, or the enhanced camouflage, but with Shkval I can't anything to spot even though the target is automatically locked. Do you see vehicles in the picture below? I can hardly see even the nose snuggle with Shkval screen! :shocking:

Edited January 18, 2016 by kobac

[CiPherX]

It looks like that developers managed to tweak how model enlargement works since last patch. Can anyone confirm it?

 

Now i can see little or no difference when using small or medium options. But i am glad to see the effects when using the large option. It does not look exagerated. There is no blurry effect anymore that cause that ridiculous visual at distance. Things are getting better. I can see aircrafts and ground targets in the distance in a pleasant way, nothing exagerated.

 

Now i expect that some servers activate model enlargement large because things are better.

 

p.s.: i even disabled my sweerFX. Keep going ED, i am still waiting the 1.5 map in 2.0. Hormuz is a need too.

Edited January 19, 2016 by CiPherX

[Why485]

If anything has changed at all, it's an engine level change, because none of the usual suspect files have been updated. After some brief testing I didn't notice any difference from 1.5.2 as released.

 

I also want to remind everybody of how inconsistent and strange the imposters look with the current settings. It's why stuff seems to just literally disappear from certain angles. Ever since 1.5.2, they've been running very tiny maxsizes that are even lower than the minsizes. This causes them to be upscaled rather than downscaled, which causes artifacts resulting in planes that look like rows of pixels or just a couple dots.

 

Conversely, when you have a maxsize greater than the minsize, the imposters are generated at a higher resolution and then downscaled, which gives a natural anti-aliasing effect and prevents the below situation from occurring. This is how imposters were configured pre-1.5.2.

 

 

Pictured are 3 F-15s, but 2 of them (because of their angle) look like a pair of dots rather than a plane.

 

Here is the exact same scenario, but with a raised maxsize (12 from 7. 12 also happens to be the value from 1.5.0.). I've touched no other imposter setting. The minsize (8 for large) and alphaExp (0.15 for large) are still their default values.

 

 

They still look like planes, and don't disappear from certain angles because of the way they get sampled at such low resolutions and then blown up. This doesn't mean that stuff isn't harder to see at certain angles. A plane from head on for example will still be much more difficult to see than from below or to the side. This just ensures they don't disappear to the point of literally having no pixels actually drawn.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Why485

[CiPherX]

How can i enable model enlargement in multiplayer? They did not appear to be functional in my MP servers.

[Wolf Rider]

people, not understanding the physics involved... will always whinge

 

Get ye to an airport - take a camera, use different focal length settings and see what really goes on....

 

 

You got exactly what you wanted SharpeXB! Even before the setting was ever implemented you were pushing for ED to drop it. Well now I guess congratulations are in order, because by actively pushing for a server side setting the whole thing has completely lost any meaning or value.

 

 

Unfortunately sport... server side settiing is server side setting - as much as you feel everything should go your way, the server feels the same... their way

Edited January 21, 2016 by Wolf Rider

[Why485]

How can i enable model enlargement in multiplayer? They did not appear to be functional in my MP servers.

 

The setting is enforced based on the mission file. It's not a visible setting in the mission editor yet, but all you should have to do is open the mission and then save it again. Whatever the model visibility setting you had set in settings when you saved it is what gets saved into the mission file.

 

On the 5th page here I've posted that if you'd try to modify the impostors.lua file the game won't recognize the model enlargement effect anymore...! Well guess what, I've tested to see what happens if I don't modify the file at all and simply open the original/ontouched one with notepad on Windows 10 and just save it (CTRL+S) without touching anything. After simply saving the file, without any kind of modifications I saw that the size of it had changed for no logical reason. The original file has 1020 bytes, but after you open it with notepad and save it with no modifications it will have 1023 bytes although it's content is exactly the original and apparently after this happens, the game no longer recognizes the file. Don't know why this happens..., if it's only me, then probably my Windows 10 notepad is doing something weird when it saves the file.

 

I just want to play with those values in it a little bit until I can find the lowest possible values for the size of the enlarged model while still being able to spot the target from realistic distances for a naked eye, but I can't find a way around the file saving issue. Any clues?

 

Thanks!

 

I use Notepad++ if that helps. I've had no such issues with modifying the settings.

[Cik]

the real problem with this whole thing isn't that airplanes are hard to see, but the 'vanishing point' especially against small aircraft. i've tried several times to dogfight against F-86 for instance in another jet age aircraft and i will start a lead turn before the merge, acquire a visual on the other side, and while i am looking right at him he just vanishes "POOF!" like smoke. and then of course i fly towards him and try to re-acquire and he's behind me.

 

it's endlessly frustrating trying to fight something that requires visual when past a certain (relatively small) distance it just vanishes.

[Why485]

the real problem with this whole thing isn't that airplanes are hard to see, but the 'vanishing point' especially against small aircraft. i've tried several times to dogfight against F-86 for instance in another jet age aircraft and i will start a lead turn before the merge, acquire a visual on the other side, and while i am looking right at him he just vanishes "POOF!" like smoke. and then of course i fly towards him and try to re-acquire and he's behind me.

 

it's endlessly frustrating trying to fight something that requires visual when past a certain (relatively small) distance it just vanishes.

 

That's a direct symptom of what I was talking about on the last page. I'm not really sure what they were thinking with the 1.5.2 imposter settings. I've seen exactly what you're describing while doing my own testing where from specific angles (and not even angles that make sense) a plane will literally disappear because of the way the pixels are drawn in with the current settings.

 

Running with larger maxsizes ensures imposters are drawn at a higher resolution than you see them and then scaled down which gives them a natural anti-aliased look and prevents them from just completely disappearing.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Why485

[Maverick Su-35S]

 

I use Notepad++ if that helps. I've had no such issues with modifying the settings.

 

Hi "Why485",

 

 

Can you please confirm me that even with notepad++ if you try to open the impostors.lua file, not modify anything, then simply save it, you won't get a different file size than the original after saving it? The original file has exactly 1020 bytes, but after I save it (without touching anything) with Windows 10's default notepad, the file becomes 1023 bytes in size for no reason and the sim doesn't recognize it anymore..., strange why I'm the only one having this issue!

 

Thanks;)!

[Maverick Su-35S]

Oh dear..., damn Windows 10:P! With notepad++ the file works and doesn't get corrupted anymore (getting from original 1020 bytes to 1023 bytes) and now I can play with these model enlargement values for a little "fun"! Realism is all we need/want!

[PiedDroit]

Oh dear..., damn Windows 10:P! With notepad++ the file works and doesn't get corrupted anymore (getting from original 1020 bytes to 1023 bytes) and now I can play with these model enlargement values for a little "fun"! Realism is all we need/want!

Windows' notepad adds a BOM (Byte Order Mark), several bytes to indicate the endianness of the file.

[Maverick Su-35S]

Windows' notepad adds a BOM (Byte Order Mark), several bytes to indicate the endianness of the file.

 

Well, whatever it does it ruins the impostors.lua file on the other way, while notepad++ seems to not do that even if it might not use BOM!:thumbup:

[Maverick Su-35S]

You guys want the best or most optimal values for model enlargement? You got it...!

 

Try replacing the following either for SMALL, MEDIUM or LARGE and use it:

 

maxSize = 8

minSize = 7

alphaExp = 0.58

 

Although the maxsize and minsize values might be appropriate for creating the transition between the 3D model and the enlargement shape in a way that you'd hardly notice (which is good), the alphaexp which affects the transparency of the model, which DOESN'T increase with range (it would be good if that would happen) but it's rather a constant and it's hard to find a value that allows for seeing both the air and ground units in a realistic manner, because if the transparency is higher in order to not let aircraft be visible from exaggerated distances, the ground units would suffer being too transparent on the ground thus making it more difficult to spot ground units even if it were no model enlargement active and so by trying to give the alphaexp a low enough value to allow ground units to be spotted from realistic ranges now the aircraft could be seen from as far as 70km away, so..., letting it to approx. 0.58 might be the best compromise!

[PiedDroit]

Well, whatever it does it ruins the impostors.lua file on the other way, while notepad++ seems to not do that even if it might not use BOM!:thumbup:

BOM is an extra unicode character to tell what is the format of the file, unfortunately if the software that read does not understand it, it sees the file as corrupted. Windows' notepad is bad because it adds it without you asking for it (edit: maybe it is not added if you choose ANSI format)...

 

I'll take a look at your settings, BTW :thumbup:

Edited January 24, 2016 by PiedDroit

[CoBlue]

You guys want the best or most optimal values for model enlargement? You got it...!

Try replacing the following either for SMALL, MEDIUM or LARGE and use it:

maxSize = 8

minSize = 7

alphaExp = 0.58

Grate job,Thanx :thumbup:

Is this safe to use for multiplayer (integrity check)?

Also you mentioned impostors.lua is a "virgin file", so if we change it, we can only do it one time, right?

Edited January 24, 2016 by CoBlue

[Maverick Su-35S]

Grate job,Thanx :thumbup:

Is this safe to use for multiplayer (integrity check)?

Also you mentioned impostors.lua is a "virgin file", so if we change it, we can only do it one time, right?

 

Hi,

 

 

Hope you guys test enough these values and if you believe they're wrong change them as you want, I'm only a player as you all are and I'm only looking towards realism. I'm no developer, but this is what I find optimum due to some limitations regarding the target's transparency with range.

 

The file is a "virgin" to DCS if you use Windows 10 because Windows 10's notepad somehow corrupts it. Someone told me (about 3 posts ago) that it uses a BOM technique when it saves a file and it seems that it ruins this file and DCS no longer recognizes it when you play, but if you'd download the free Notepad++ and edit the impostors.lua with it instead you can make any changes to those values as many times as you want and the file will have no problems.

 

 

Good day!

Edited January 24, 2016 by Maverick Su-35S

[Why485]

Grate job,Thanx :thumbup:

Is this safe to use for multiplayer (integrity check)?

Also you mentioned impostors.lua is a "virgin file", so if we change it, we can only do it one time, right?

 

You should be able to change it as many times as you want. I'm not sure what issues Maverick is having with the files as I'm able to change it to whatever, whenever.

 

You guys want the best or most optimal values for model enlargement? You got it...!

 

Try replacing the following either for SMALL, MEDIUM or LARGE and use it:

 

maxSize = 8

minSize = 7

alphaExp = 0.58

 

Although the maxsize and minsize values might be appropriate for creating the transition between the 3D model and the enlargement shape in a way that you'd hardly notice (which is good), the alphaexp which affects the transparency of the model, which DOESN'T increase with range (it would be good if that would happen) but it's rather a constant and it's hard to find a value that allows for seeing both the air and ground units in a realistic manner, because if the transparency is higher in order to not let aircraft be visible from exaggerated distances, the ground units would suffer being too transparent on the ground thus making it more difficult to spot ground units even if it were no model enlargement active and so by trying to give the alphaexp a low enough value to allow ground units to be spotted from realistic ranges now the aircraft could be seen from as far as 70km away, so..., letting it to approx. 0.58 might be the best compromise!

 

Alphaexp is strange. I used to think it was just a constant value across all distances, but after doing some really extreme testing, I'm not so sure that's the case.

 

In a couple times when I've hyper-exaggerated the values (maxsize of 256, alphaExp of 1.0), I've noticed that the imposters are fully opaque until they hit the minsize. After the minsize, they gradually become more transparent until eventually they hit the alphaExp value and then remain at that level of transparency.

 

The distance at which something with an alphaExp of 1.0 eventually becomes fully transparent seems to correlate to something a little past 10km, but it's likely that's just the result of some non-linear falloff function that just ends up looking like that. When you have realistically small minsize values, this effectively ends up looking like a constant value across all distances.

 

Either way, I think a correct minsize that looks the same across all resolutions, plus a transparency that changes based on distance, and separate values for these settings on ground vehicles versus air, would be a good universal solution to model visibility that doesn't need to be a gameplay option.

 

To throw some aircraft spotting ballpark numbers out there, at 2560x1440, I think 7.0-8.0 looks very realistic for minsize (which is about 6-7 at 1080p). If that was coupled with transparencies that perhaps start to fade around 10-20km, and become fully transparent around 50-60km, I think you would end up with something very realistic.

 

Ideally I think these distances would be modified based on the true size of the object, so for example a B-52 would fade at much longer distances, but, baby steps first.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Why485

[gavagai]

While many are happy to the smart scaling feature, I am not so much.

 

Kind of late, but I have to say this:

 

What we have in DCS now is NOT smart-scaling. That feature in another sim works much better than the object magnification recently available in DCS.:doh:

[SharpeXB]

What we have in DCS now is NOT smart-scaling.

What exactly is "smart scaling"?

[GGTharos]

Kind of late, but I have to say this:

 

What we have in DCS now is NOT smart-scaling. That feature in another sim works much better than the object magnification recently available in DCS.:doh:

 

If you believe it works well, you haven't seen it get abused.