How do you fly the p51d when dogfighting...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

The P51d was my entry into DCS, but with the D9 and K4 modules I became spoiled by their stability and response over a wide range of speeds, ease of management, and the fact that I do prefer them, by far, as aircraft than the p51d, but, sometimes I pick the pony, specially when there is imbalance in a server I get logged into online.

 

My biggest problem is that the p51d turns to be a very "wobbling" / unstable platform whenmy speed get's bellow 230 KIAS or so. If I deploy even single point of flaps and use higher power settings during a dogfight, things turn even worst.

 

So, what's the best technique to use when using the p51d against other fighters ? Is it supposed to use with B & Z just like the Dora ?

[Solty]

Turn fight the Dora. B&Z the 109.

[DD_Fenrir]

The single most important aspect to dogfighting with the P-51 is properly coordinating the rudder with aileron input - I cannot stress enough what a difference this makes to handling. Stick goes left, left foot forward, stick goes right right foot forward. The amount of input varies on on load and airspeed and proficiency comes with practise.

 

Once established in the developed turn - and particularly for aggressive dogfighting levels of bank - you will find that in order to keep the ball centred you can have significant levels of rudder deflection into the turn. However you will also find the outboard wing continuing to rise; in this instance the stick is often in a neutral or even slightly opposite-to-turn aileron position to hold bank angle.

 

This is an aerodynamic characteristic of steep thermal turns in gliders (the outboard wing generates a lot more lift = a lot more drag, corrective rudder input generates yaw induced roll) so a not unfamiliar behaviour to me; needless to say I was a bit surprised to see the P-51 exhibit it! But it works.

 

EDIT* Apologies jcomm, I have by chance seen another post where you demonstrate your gliding experience and awareness of the cross control behaviour in turns; it seems I am preaching to the converted!

Edited January 23, 2016 by DD_Fenrir

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

EDIT* Apologies jcomm, I have by chance seen another post where you demonstrate your gliding experience and awareness of the cross control behaviour in turns; it seems I am preaching to the converted!

 

No problem, but yes, 36 yrs flying gliders has given me some good coordination skills :-)

 

But it's the wobbling, probably due to prop effects at higher AoA / slower speeds that turns the aircraft into a rather unstable gun platform.

 

I have to be sure I'm always above 250 km/h to ave some good chances :-)

[Cool-Hand]

Turn fight the Dora. B&Z the 109.

 

What he said :thumbup: Just to add my 2 cents... try and keep the fight as high speed as possible with the 109s, around 350 mph and above. They seem to have trouble keeping up with turns there when you are riding the edge of blackout, especially at those speeds. If it goes sideways on you, just dive away and extend out and use the K-14 to pick them off at long distance. YMMV but it usually works for me if I'm alone, but nothing beats a good wingman!

[DD_Fenrir]

Yeah my personal rule is keep above 220mph IAS for both controllability and engine cooling reasons.

 

The combat flaps can be a slippery slope to an unfavourable low-e situation if over-employed; I try to use them sparingly and only when absolutely required.

[Captain Orso]

How do I fight in the 'Stang? Terribly! :cry:

 

I remember reading somewhere--most of my statements start out this way :huh:--that the P-51D has a speed envelope in which it maneuvers optimally; between 210 and 250 at about 5000'. Outside of this and she doesn't handle as well.

 

I also keep seeing reports from people who fly "war birds" and have extensively flow both the 51 and the 109--not an experience many WWII pilots could claim during the war--and can thus compare them better than somebody just comparing statistics. They are saying that the 109 turns better at lower speeds and climbs faster, due to the slats on the wings and the far-lower-weight advantage.

 

I also heard the description that the 109 was a weapons platform, around which an aircraft was built. She's designed so that the pilot can easily use pitch and yaw to aim her guns to a far greater extent than in the 51. This makes getting "the kill" a completely different proposition.

 

Recently in MP I've noted that some 109 pilots are using the high climb rate maneuverability of the 109 tactically to their advantage. They fly in low under the fur ball, where they are difficult to see through their camouflage against the ground, pick an unsuspecting target and climb in behind it. By the time the 51 pilot notices, it's almost too late.

 

My tactic is generally to get inside the attacker. Don't let him get his shot. The one advantage the 51 does have over the 109 is the role rate, so I often wing-over and half-s to get away. Of course, everything after this, in my case, has a lot to do with luck :doh:, 'cause my skills be meager indeed.

 

So back to the question at hand, because I haven't heard it addressed really yet. How do you fight in the 'Stang?

[Racerx]

The P-51 can most certainly turn with the 109. Watch some of t4trouble's P-51 YouTube videos. Or, watch some of Schnarre's (who is an excellent 109 pilot) turn fight with Trouble. Schnarre admits himself that Trouble can get around on him 50-60 percent of the time. There is just a proper technique that it requires. Watching him fly it seems like he uses rudder coordination to great effect.

[TWC_SLAG]

No problem, but yes, 36 yrs flying gliders has given me some good coordination skills :-)

 

But it's the wobbling, probably due to prop effects at higher AoA / slower speeds that turns the aircraft into a rather unstable gun platform.

 

I have to be sure I'm always above 250 km/h to ave some good chances :-)

 

Not to hijack the thread, but what and where did you guys fly gliders? I did most of mine in Houston. I have owned a Phoebus B1 and a Libelle 201B.:pilotfly:

 

badfinger

[arglmauf]

The P-51 can most certainly turn with the 109. Watch some of t4trouble's P-51 YouTube videos. Or, watch some of Schnarre's (who is an excellent 109 pilot) turn fight with Trouble. Schnarre admits himself that Trouble can get around on him 50-60 percent of the time. There is just a proper technique that it requires. Watching him fly it seems like he uses rudder coordination to great effect.

 

Wish he could elaborate on this a bit:) The guy is like a virtuos when it comes to dogfighting with the P51.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Not to hijack the thread, but what and where did you guys fly gliders? I did most of mine in Houston. I have owned a Phoebus B1 and a Libelle 201B.:pilotfly:

 

badfinger

 

 

Sorry for only now have seen your post...

 

Portugal, and Spain.

 

Started with Rhonlerche and Bergfalke, Blanik L-18, Mucha, Zie, ...., AS-K21, Grob Twin Acro, presently flying mostlly an "old" Pw6...

[Reflected]

Sorry for only now have seen your post...

 

Portugal, and Spain.

 

Started with Rhonlerche and Bergfalke, Blanik L-18, Mucha, Zie, ...., AS-K21, Grob Twin Acro, presently flying mostlly an "old" Pw6...

 

Good for you guys, I`m stuck with the old Schleicher Ka-8 for the moment, but soon graduating to fly the Grob Astir. Fingers crossed! :pilotfly:

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Good for you guys, I`m stuck with the old Schleicher Ka-8 for the moment, but soon graduating to fly the Grob Astir. Fingers crossed! :pilotfly:

 

I'd rather be using the Ka-8...

 

Actually a friend just got a Ka-6, in excellent shape. Picked it in Germany...

Edited February 10, 2016 by jcomm

[LURKINGBADGER]

Hey Everyone

 

I was wondering the other day if a reducet amount of fuel would have a positiv effect on the p51's dogfight performace, everyone that flys the 51 knows how fast you can stall the 51 below 300 mph. I know that a 51a, b and c do not have the range because they have smaller tanks, has anyone experienced drastic differences when the amount of fuel carried is under 75% or even lower.

 

Thanks, have a good one

[saburo_cz]

Less fuel will increase turning ability but not really speed.

With less fuel (about 50%) Pony can "easy" win fight against Bf (but it still mainly depends on situation).

 

P-51B/C/D/K had same fuel tanks. Earlier models had lower amount of fuel.

[LURKINGBADGER]

okey great, thank you for quick reply:pilotfly:

[RoflSeal]

For the multiplayer maps ingame you can get away with like 30% fuel in the loadout.

 

Greater the 68% btw starts filling the fuselage tank (which is bad for maneuvarbility.)

[Talisman_VR]

When we get the Normandy map I hope to be able to fly on servers with more realistic scenarios so that 100% fuel will be needed in most cases.

I used to take 100% fuel (left and right tanks) on air-quake servers as I like to take my time to gain altitude and a tactical positioning advantage before engaging the enemy. Also, if badly outnumbered I then have the fuel to out-run the opposition. With the right tactics I can outrun the Dora and the 109K and drag them over the map (I particularly enjoy this, nothing like getting chased by a bunch of LW types and they cant catch up) so they have to turn back or run out of fuel. Although, that was prior to V1.5 as I have not been flying DCS lately due to the visual distance spotting problems. I am waiting in hope for V2 public release.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[RoflSeal]

When we get the Normandy map I hope to be able to fly on servers with more realistic scenarios so that 100% fuel will be needed in most cases.

I used to take 100% fuel (left and right tanks) on air-quake servers as I like to take my time to gain altitude and a tactical positioning advantage before engaging the enemy. Also, if badly outnumbered I then have the fuel to out-run the opposition. With the right tactics I can outrun the Dora and the 109K and drag them over the map (I particularly enjoy this, nothing like getting chased by a bunch of LW types and they cant catch up) so they have to turn back or run out of fuel. Although, that was prior to V1.5 as I have not been flying DCS lately due to the visual distance spotting problems. I am waiting in hope for V2 public release.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Even on Normandy map you wouldn't need 100% fuel.

 

Escort range for the Mustang with no external tanks was 475miles, from Newmarket to Stuttgart, 20 or so minutes of combat and back.

 

You would need a West Europe Map to stretch the Mustangs legs.

[Talisman_VR]

Even on Normandy map you wouldn't need 100% fuel.

 

Escort range for the Mustang with no external tanks was 475miles, from Newmarket to Stuttgart, 20 or so minutes of combat and back.

 

You would need a West Europe Map to stretch the Mustangs legs.

 

Left and Right tanks only I think I said.

 

Also, the Normandy map is due to include the South of England, so nice sea crossing to complete :))

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman