No one escapes in front of the Russian aircraft

[pr1malr8ge]

google translate

I apologize to everyone. I also write 10% of what I have to say, for the same reason :(

 

Don't apologize, nothing wrong with what you're doing. Just some stuff is hard to understand and it's not your fault.

[*Rage*]

not 1v1, certainly, but if the ER actually gains the ability to hit the enemy, the enemy will actually have to go defensive. at that point you can actually press the fight and kill them if you outnumber them. in it's current state, you cannot, as the number of flankers shooting at an eagle means almost nothing. even if i had two flankers vs one eagle, and i engaged him and then pressed with my number 2, the chances of actually getting a kill are still pretty close to 0%.

 

if the missile actually worked, that would not be the case.

 

edit: basically, BVR tactics would actually function if the missile hit anything

 

okay so maybe i should explain this better.

 

in DCS, why does the AMRAAM work as a weapon system? the reason is not exactly what you might expect.

 

is it because of it's long range? no. it's range is actually fairly pitiful

is it because of the ARH? kind of, it does give you an advantage, but not a killer one.

 

it's actually because the missile's homing is good enough that it is actually scary. basically, you have to be able to rely on your ability to kinetically defeat the missile, which means you have to be careful in how you commit to fights. you cannot simply bulldog your way in and have a pretty high chance of survival. you cannot rely on chaff to defeat a missile, let alone several. so it actually does it's job of making the enemy commit conservatively.

 

that gives the eagle a sort of 'hidden advantage' where as long as the eagle could theoretically have fired on you, you have to be extraordinarily careful about how close you are to it, meaning in most circumstances you cannot ever press for a kill with assurances that you will not suddenly explode.

 

the ER does no such thing of course. it's so vulnerable to chaff that even assuming you continue almost straight into merge and just spam chaff you can defeat more than one aircraft's worth of missiles. if missiles were made more effective at homing, it would of course effect the AMRAAM however comparatively less, because the AMRAAM already REQUIRES kinetic defeat. the ER does not at all. in the minds of the majority of the people playing on the server, a ^29 spike shooting at you provokes no fear. and they are correct, a sukhoi launching is mostly a nonthreat except from very close range (where, in any case he should just use an archer and you'll never know you've been fired at, anyway)

 

and that is why the ER is a terrible, terrible missile. not necessarily because it's a SARH, or because it's range is too low, or whatever.

 

Exactly.

 

Let me put it another way. All you 120 guys keep talking about how you want more range out of it. 8nm NEZ etc etc. Well I couldnt care less if you gave the ER twice the range it has now. It never guides properly against a human pilot so what would be the point? Give it twice the range or half the drag or twice the thrust or whatever its all the same. It misstracks.

 

There is almost never a situation where firing an ER is more advantageous then not firing it. At least currently.

 

How long have I been talking about this issue for?

 

Edit: I actually found my first post reporting it! The thread I started has since been merged into the Air-to-air missile discussion thread for legacy DCS:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1707895&postcount=243

 

3 years is long enough ED. Sort it!

Edited January 28, 2016 by ///Rage

[GGTharos]

They do, early and often.

 

right hey there we go

 

they don't

 

fix pls!

[Cik]

okay GG, you have two sukhoi vs one eagle, and you want to kill the eagle in BVR

 

how do you deploy your ships to kill him without him simply killing at least one and then disengaging?

 

no matter where you position yourself the chaff will trash missile after missile

 

even assuming you deploy in the most advantageous position, and even assuming you have a kinetic advantage of altitude, speed or both, you can definitely lose that fight to the missile RNG.

 

this isn't the case with aim120c, either.

[GGTharos]

okay GG, you have two sukhoi vs one eagle, and you want to kill the eagle in BVR

 

I already said that there is no BVR in DCS, so this line of theorising is somewhat ineffective.

Did I say things that were difficult to follow? That happens.

[Cik]

keep on trolling there my friend

[Bidartarra]

Exactly.

 

 

 

3 years is long enough ED. Sort it!

 

Not to sound pessimistic, but didn't Wags said they wouldn't in one of the twitch videos of last year?

The debate arose then and I think I remember him issuing a quick statement about it. Will try to find the video when I'm off work.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Bidartarra

[TAW_Blaze]

okay GG, you have two sukhoi vs one eagle, and you want to kill the eagle in BVR

 

how do you deploy your ships to kill him without him simply killing at least one and then disengaging?

 

no matter where you position yourself the chaff will trash missile after missile

 

even assuming you deploy in the most advantageous position, and even assuming you have a kinetic advantage of altitude, speed or both, you can definitely lose that fight to the missile RNG.

 

this isn't the case with aim120c, either.

 

Don't let him attack both of you? Seriously it's not that hard. If you have enough angular separation he won't be able to launch at you at the same time, not even with TWS. That by itself will give enough time to the guy who didn't get shot at to push in for WVR, especially with the current missile ranges. If the guy is really good he could pull a shot on both of you if he knows where to look for your wingman by ditching the lock after launch. But with this you have about 2-3 secs to find the guy pulling 7-9 Gs, not exactly the thing you expect out of a random guy. But even then if he manages to shoot at both of you if you have a slight range separation, the guy in the back will be able to keep going unless he was within a given range.

 

If you treat your missile as if it was completely useless then you might aswell not carry it. I've been there with the 120 and it was far from the reality.

 

Last week we trained 1v2 ER vs Sparrows and we kept losing planes regardless of how big of a chaff cloud we left in the air.

[winchesterdelta1]

 

Last week we trained 1v2 ER vs Sparrows and we kept losing planes regardless of how big of a chaff cloud we left in the air.

 

Yup.. i got decimated by ER. And they did not even fire all 6 of them at me. I was chaffing like crazy and i could not understand why they suddenly could get me killed now. And the week before i was flying that same mission with a Flanker. And was very successful with the ER. And i will tell you... i'm a noob with the SU-27 and i killed some very potent enemy's.

But yes ER needs to be fixed. But i don't think it's really going to matter for most pilots that can not even kill with ER now.

Edited January 29, 2016 by winchesterdelta1

[OnlyforDCS]

keep on trolling there my friend

 

What trolling, why would he go into theory-crafting tactics if said tactics are not supported in the game?

[*Rage*]

Finding workarounds does not mean that the issue is ok. I can fit Aim9s onto a Mirage but that doesnt mean we can forget about the 550 issues, as an example.

[GGTharos]

That wasn't the point, and it isn't even so much of a work-around. This is stuff that works one way or the other.

 

The difference is that you cannot use the long-range stuff, which we're all well aware of.

[*Rage*]

GG I get you have an issue with missile ranges but that is a separate issue and it doesnt mean we can just ignore that whole BVR aspect. Even with the ranges we have now BVR is still possible, especially high and fast (40km+ launches)

 

The point is without exploit free guidance theres no point talking about range.

[GGTharos]

Ok, again, not my point. :)

 

My point was that you can't make some sort of 'tactics don't work' blanket statement. They most certainly do, you just need to know what they are and why they work. They're just not going to be BVR tactics.

 

It had nothing to do with ignoring BVR or other issues, it's just a statement on what is achievable in the sim now.

[*Rage*]

Ok. Better we just avoid the semantics and philosophical.

 

Are the devs aware of an 'ER guidance issue'? Or a better question is are they going to do anything about it?

[Drona]

^^I really doubt they're going to do anything about it :( unless it happens by mistake (which happened in one of the previous 1.5 OB patches)

[Cik]

they won't, they just send GG "there is no BVR in this game" tharos to do damage control for them.

 

hint: if you can shoot and hit something beyond visual range, there is BVR in the game

 

and you can

 

so there is

 

jesus

[21stCenturyPilot]

Attack from the side or rear with IRST and R-27ET.

[*Rage*]

^^Again. We're not interested in workarounds.

[21stCenturyPilot]

^^Again. We're not interested in workarounds.

 

Guess you'll have to wait for ED to change it then. If and when that is...

 

Could try a MP game with no chaff might be interesting.

[Ironhand]

...

 

Could try a MP game with no chaff might be interesting.

Or severely limit the # of chaff onboard... :) ...which would be even more interesting...

 

EDIT: Just editing to say that, against the AI at least, when chaff is not available, you get BVR combat that is, indeed, BVR. For example, with both myself and the AI at 10K meters altitude, if I launch at 60% (50km in this instance) of RMax (85km) I get pretty much what I expect--a low success rate. On the other hand, by waiting until 35% of RMax (30km) but still above RTR (18km) I get a high success rate. And the same holds true as the altitude diminishes. The ranges involved are less (as expected) but the pattern of success remains.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ironhand

[Sweep]

^^Again. We're not interested in workarounds.

 

You guys already do those workarounds pretty well. :lol:

[SinusoidDelta]

they won't, they just send GG "there is no BVR in this game" tharos to do damage control for them.

 

hint: if you can shoot and hit something beyond visual range, there is BVR in the game

 

and you can

 

so there is

 

jesus

Nobody "sent" GG to comment in this thread, no reason to make this personal.

 

BVR doesn't exist in the sense that most fight don't end before the merge. I spend most of my flight time setting up a BVR engagement only to have it turn into a knife fight.

[*Rage*]

Nothing wrong with a BVR fight progressing to WVR. Especially if its more than 1v1.

 

What we have now though is a WVR that starts at 60km. No advantage in firing first or jockeying for position. Just spam CM and wait till the merge.

Edited January 29, 2016 by ///Rage

[Tucano_uy]

Maybe the solution is not flying the 27 anymore.