My A10 pilot came for his lesson today

[Zimmerdylan]

Disclaimer: This is all stuff I am remembering after the fact. Most of it is accurate as it was given to me. I may not have remembered word for word but it's pretty close.

There was a guy who asked me to ask this guy a specific question. I am sorry, I did not remember what it was this time around so I did not ask. But I promise, I will on Wed. next week when the guy comes for his next music lesson.

 

 

OK then.......I had my A10 pilot for his music lesson this morning. I have not been wanting to prod him too much over the past month or so, so I have not gotten much more info out of him in a while. But today, he sat with me while I started the DCS A10C, and took off. I was not able to write down or record everything he said but he did give me a boatload of information.

I will do my best to share this with you. I was pretty amazed at much of what we talked about.

 

 

A few things I asked him about my own personal habits: Do you always use flaps for takeoff? Absolutely!!! There is no circumstance where you would not want to use flaps on takeoff, ever.

I have to note: I almost never use flaps in any plane for takeoff. I will now I guess.

 

No no's in my startup procedure: Closing the canopy with the APU running. Reason: APU puts out very very cold air into the cockpit. In his words “It could almost spit out Ice chunks”. It makes the closed cockpit very uncomfortable. He said that the last thing that you do before Hitting the runway, or sometimes taxi, is close the canopy. Right next to shutting down the APU. Yes.....you are suppose to wait until taxi to shut down the APU. This surprised me. Why?? Because the A10 engines are not all that great at generating Consistent electrical power at idle speed. It's best to use the APU up to the time you get ready to throttle up.

Do not turn on any electronic or sensitive devices before the APU is up and fully running. This made perfect sense, and in fact I have wondered about this. Obvious reason: Power surges. Duh!

Oh....and he jumped on me about this (for a damn simulator none the less). Do not turn on APU or any electrical device before you push and depress the Fire Detect/ bleed air leak test button button. I wasn't sure where this was located, I had not done that test in a long time I guess(on the aux light panel).

Engines need to be fired up immediately after APU is powered up. They are the first thing to get running. And then all of the magic devices get started up. This is also partly due to power surge protection. Again....makes sense to me.

 

 

He also pointed out that no alarms are suppose to go off when the first engine meets full idle RPM. I do not know if this happens in other people's A10's but it does in mine. Mine makes the same sound as it does when there is an emergency or the landing gear goes up.

 

 

He also pointed me to behind the headrest on the left side of the cockpit. There is suppose to be a box back there where they insert a jump drive of sorts. From what I gather, this serves the same purpose as pressing to load the mission parameters. I'm just kind of guessing, this isn't 100% though, he was a little vague on it. Either way, the box behind the seat is missing in DCS.

I can see it in this video.

 

 

He said that the startup sound of the engine are right on, but from taxi on, the plane does not sound like an A10 sounds from the cockpit. He said that the DCS model sounds more like a commercial plane.

 

 

As we went along, and I chatted with him about the TGP, he stressed that this was modeled kind of funny. He kept mentioning that A10 pilots are pretty dependent on the Pave Penny system for much of the laser detection and guidance. I guess that it completely missing in DCS, or was integrated into the TGP. But it is the semi football shaped thing under the AC between the cockpit and nose on the underside. He showed me where it was suppose to be located in the cockpit, but it was not there, or wasn't correctly done anyway.

 

 

He also said that most A10 pilots hate the round pipper for the gun. They use the cross. He use to be an A10 instructor here at DMAFB and they always called it the wasteland sight or something like that.

And that most a10 pilots prefer dropping dumb bombs and using the cannon. He went so far as to say that the cannon was the primary A10 weapon.

 

 

Oh......funny thing. A10 has no ground brakes at all. The chocks stay under the plane until it taxis. I was pretty surprised about that. He said that even the engine at idle will make the plane roll. But there is no ground brake. Hmm.......

 

 

He also said that when they're at the ranges at NTTR. They are instructed at all cost to stay out of the box (Groom Lake). You are not allowed to go within certain parameters of that place. And....under no uncertain terms are you to land there unless you are about to lose nothing short of your life. This is a biiig no no.

He kept telling me jokingly (there is no Groom Lake, it doesn't exist).

Edited January 25, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[Blooze]

Thanks again for sharing all this. Very interesting stuff.:thumbup:

[lobo]

Thanks for that writeup! Nice.

 

re the brakes I think you mean there is no parking brake.

 

Cheers

[Zimmerdylan]

Thanks for that writeup! Nice.

 

re the brakes I think you mean there is no parking brake.

 

Cheers

 

Hmm....I'm going to have to get clarification on this. I do know that he was quite clear that without the chocks, the A10 will roll under no uncertain terms. This does imply that there aren't any brakes on this plane at all. But that makes no sense if you have to land, and stop the plane. Not to mention that if you have brakes that are strong enough to stop the weight of an A10 and it's payload, then they should be able to keep it from rolling at idle. I'll have to clear this up with him. I know that he was very clear that the plane needed the chocks because it will roll, even at idle.

If you are correct, then DCS modeled this pretty well. Other than the ground crew missing to take out the chocks. But this is only a formality really.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[hansangb]

Interesting, thanks for posting. I went to U of A and saw the A10's *all* the time. Few weeks ago, I was there again for some work at Ft. Huachuca and didn't see one A10. I'm told the A10's were deployed to Korea? They used to do touch and go's all day.

[Deezle]

Thanks for sharing.

 

I've been wondering for a while now, are there any restrictions from a pilot pointing their TGP at Groom Lake and having a look around?

[Nerd1000]

Thanks for sharing.

 

I've been wondering for a while now, are there any restrictions from a pilot pointing their TGP at Groom Lake and having a look around?

 

I doubt you'd see much. If they're that keen on keeping it secret then most stuff would be either in hangers or underground to keep it hidden from spy satellites.

[lobo]

Hmm....I'm going to have to get clarification on this.

 

Hi Zimmerdylan

 

I guarantee you the A-10 has wheel brakes. :smilewink:

 

Tech Sgt. Michael Sharum, a crew chief with the 188th Fighter Wing, conducts preflight brake checks on a running A-10C Thunderbolt II prior to taxi during a Unit Training Assembly November 7, 2009. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech Sgt. Stephen Hornsey)

 

http://www.188wg.ang.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/091107-F-6918H-004.jpg

 

It still seems weird to me that there is no parking brake. Wonder what the logic is behind that?

[Yurgon]

Thx again, very interesting to read! :thumbup:

[apolloace]

Interesting facts! I really enjoyed reading that!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

:) :)

[Snoopy]

Off to the gym and on my phone but. It sounds to me like he gave you his opinion/preference and you took that as facts about all A-10 pilots. Here are some facts based off of my working yesterday.

 

1. Our pilots close the canopy as soon as the APU starts most of the time and they shut the APU down at various times. Some as soon as the engines are started, some in the middle of the launch, some before taxi and others at EOR. As to air being to cold, temperature can be adjusted.

 

2. Generator issues at idle, first I've ever heard of that.

 

3. No electrical devices before APU start, yes and no. UHF radio isn't powered by the APU so it won't create a loaded condition.

 

4. Spot on pilots (and maintainers) always press both test buttons to check cockpit lighting before starting the APU and again before starting #1.

 

5. Engines don't have to be started up right after APU start, on a launch yesterday (average 1.5 hours for this deployment) some pilots wait up to 20 to 30 minutes to start the engines after APU start.

 

6. I get master caution sounds when starting (the real) aircraft and have to hit the master caution button.

 

7. Black box (Real name is the DVADR) is missing, which is correct. I put a bug report in when I was still an Ed tester.

 

8. Not sure the last time he flew an A-10 but the pave penny pod and pylon was removed from the A-10 approx 4 years ago (depending on when units accomplished the TCTO).

 

9. Gun pipper, that is pilot preference, I've been told different things by many pilots.

 

10. He should have said no parking brake, it does have brakes on the ground the pilot just has to hold them.

 

Lastly, if you want to know how an A-10 should be started per the 1A-10C-1 download the 476th checklist, it was developed straight from the real -1 with changes made only due to differences in DCS from the real aicraft.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Snoopy

[Zimmerdylan]

Off to the gym and on my phone but. It sounds to me like he gave you his opinion/preference and you took that as facts about all A-10 pilots. Here are some facts based off of my working yesterday.

 

1. Our pilots close the canopy as soon as the APU starts most of the time and they shut the APU down at various times. Some as soon as the engines are started, some in the middle of the launch, some before taxi and others at EOR. As to air being to cold, temperature can be adjusted.

 

2. Generator issues at idle, first I've ever heard of that.

 

3. No electrical devices before APU start, yes and no. UHF radio isn't powered by the APU so it won't create a loaded condition.

 

4. Spot on pilots (and maintainers) always press both test buttons to check cockpit lighting before starting the APU and again before starting #1.

 

5. Engines don't have to be started up right after APU start, on a launch yesterday (average 1.5 hours for this deployment) some pilots wait up to 20 to 30 minutes to start the engines after APU start.

 

6. I get master caution sounds when starting (the real) aircraft and have to hit the master caution button.

 

7. Black box (Real name is the DVADR) is missing, which is correct. I put a bug report in when I was still an Ed tester.

 

8. Not sure the last time he flew an A-10 but the pave penny pod and pylon was removed from the A-10 approx 4 years ago (depending on when units accomplished the TCTO).

 

9. Gun pipper, that is pilot preference, I've been told different things by many pilots.

 

10. He should have said no parking brake, it does have brakes on the ground the pilot just has to hold them.

 

Lastly, if you want to know how an A-10 should be started per the 1A-10C-1 download the 476th checklist, it was developed straight from the real -1 with changes made only due to differences in DCS from the real aicraft.

 

 

 

 

Wow....lets try and be a little more scathing.

I am just conveying what was conveyed to me. I have never sat in an A10, but I know that Rick (my student) was an instructor for many A10 pilots, and still flies today. He is on the verge of retirement where he'll be going to fly for Delta airlines this summer. I believe that his wife is an A10 mechanic.

I went over your checklist for the 476th and it seems to confirm pretty much what I have said. APU before most of the electronics, And....one thing he did tell me was that pre start checks are a lot about making sure that things are off rather than on, before you go into your start procedure. This is for protection against power surges. So I don't see any argument there. And as per your checklist, all sensitive electronics are started after the APU is up and running. The radio is run from the battery and he did mention this. However, a radio is a radio is a radio. I have A.M. And F.M. Radios in my home. As do I have UHF channels on my T.V., these are probably not all that sensitive ,relatively speaking. I do not believe that he was talking about the radio. He did tell me that it was actually one of the first things that you turn on.

After doing some research on APU's and their function and purpose, I see that this guy isn't filling me full of opinions. An APU produces cold air much more efficiently than any climate control unit out there. And in fact it is said that it is way too good at it and can often put out unbearably cold air bleed. So I have to side with this guy. Nothing personal mind you. I just know this guy is an A10 pilot and instructor, I know that he would not give me any stories. And again, this is his word, his instruction. Maybe you can close the canopy, but.....the guy is an instructor and I suppose he has told many a young A10 pilot of these things.

I remember when I shared that the A10 never carries 3 Mavs per wing, He stated that it actually was capable of carrying 3 per wing but it was never done. So the canopy, and APU startup seems as though it goes into the same boat. It could be done but by your own startup manual, it is done in the order I talked about. So why the fuss over it???

As far as the pipper and stuff like that. He said that many pilots, not all. And in fact, in his experience, it was taught at DMAFB that the round pipper was the lesser preference because it just cluttered up the HUD. And I can actually see that when I'm playing around in the DCS A10. It does get in the way. So I have to believe that this is probably the case. But please keep in mind, that he did leave it to preference as he said "most" pilots.

When he told me about the pave penny, we were talking about laser guidance and assist, and he did not go into it right away, he first asked me to look at the outside of the A/C too see if it were there ( I had no clue what that thing was), he then went into what it is there for and then he told me that this was what was used in this A10 for such purposes, and then he went on to say that it was not enabled in the DCS A10. Whether it is in use right now, he did not say. But he told me that the pod was there and that this was the laser guidance system. He told me about all the little diamonds that appear on the HUD as the lasers are picked up by the pave penny system. Possibly, and most likely, he was referring to the DCS A10 when he referenced the Pave Penny system. I have looked at 2015 photos of the A10 and indeed the Pave Penny has been removed on most of them. But he isn't wrong by any means. The guy knew what he was looking for when he mentioned it.

And on a final note, he said that startup checklist moves from left to right in the cockpit. This more than confirms most of what this guy has told me. And what is on your startup list for the 476th. Checks from left to right and start up from left to right. This confirms the order of things. And I am only a messenger. I know so little about what goes on in an actual A10 cockpit that it really doesn't matter all that much to me. This is not my life, it is a hobby. I probably still won't use flaps as I find it easier to take off without them.

I do know that I see all kinds of startup procedures for the DCS, A10C on YouTube and they are so random that no two are even remotely alike in 9 out of 10 cases. And even again....this does not mean every case on the internet. I stated that I could not go word for word at the beginning of my post. And I couldn't. But your manual confirms what I was saying and you seem to be denying.

I don't know who you are, I'm not passing judgment. You probably know what you are talking about. But I know that once a week I sit here with a guy that I know flies the A10. He is not on my computer screen belittling others about what they say and flaunting his experience. He is not a perfect stranger. This guy right there in front of me, showing me pictures of him in his uniform in an A10. So I have to go by what he says. It's nothing personal. Just common sense so far as I am concerned. My father in law was an A10 mechanic, I don't go to him to ask about these things.

So I make these posts to share what he says. And I am in no real position to argue the subject. My relationship with this gentleman is of a professional nature and I cannot afford badgering him over internet squabbles. I would rather politely debate rather than go tit for tat on who knows more. As in 90% of the cases in these matters, the facts are usually somewhere in between.

[Enduro14]

Do realize this the military being the Airforce or the Army or what not all have contracts or in Army talk SOP's. But every unit out their does something different, and every pilot or soldier has different experiences and opinions so one A10 pilot from one Squadron will do something a certain way while in another Squadron they do it different. The military is not as Dress Right Dress as you may think so i can easily see differences in opinions and such, especially from an Instructor pilot, compared to a Line Pilot. Goes the same in my area of the service as i seen similiar things all the time when i was a instructor in my field.

Keep bringing the info its great to read and get many perspectives

[KaspeR32]

I don't think it's very unreasonable that two RW pilots have different experiences with the plane. I find both dylan's student and Snoopy's information extremely interesting. I bet you couldn't get two airline pilots that fly the same plane to behave identical either when it comes to start procedures, etc.

 

I didn't get that Snoopy was belittling though, just that he said his references differed from yours. You both should be glad you even have references like you do, I'd kill for a conversation with a real A-10 pilot any day. ;)

[Snoopy]

I wasn't being belittling, I was sharing my experience the same as the pilot did to you Zimmerdylan.

 

No two pilots in the same squadron do everything the same, I see that in person every day.

 

Sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I have over 10 years maintenance experience on the A-10 (a and c models) and am in the middle of a deployment right now.

 

Lastly, Did you even read the entire original post? I confirmed and agreed with a lot of what your wrote.

 

Anyways, took this yesterday.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 28, 2016 by Snoopy

[Enduro14]

its interesting to see the loadout in that pic snoopy, A10 and many tools for the job!!

[ChillyWillies]

I wasn't being belittling, I was sharing my experience the same as the pilot did to you Zimmerdylan.

 

No two pilots in the same squadron do everything the same, I see that in person every day.

 

Sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I have over 10 years maintenance experience on the A-10 (a and c models) and am in the middle of a deployment right now. Google turkey and a-10s.

 

Lastly, Did you even read the entire original post? I confirmed and agreed with a lot of what your wrote.

 

Anyways, took this yesterday.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for your service and your insight. Great photo!

[KaspeR32]

I wasn't being belittling, I was sharing my experience the same as the pilot did to you Zimmerdylan.

 

No two pilots in the same squadron do everything the same, I see that in person every day.

 

Sorry if you took it the wrong way, but I have over 10 years maintenance experience on the A-10 (a and c models) and am in the middle of a deployment right now. Google turkey and a-10s.

 

Lastly, Did you even read the entire original post? I confirmed and agreed with a lot of what your wrote.

 

 

 

Snoopy, I just love that people who work around the real life aircraft, appreciate DCS for it's fidelity and depth. Have you ever shown any of your squad members the sim? What have they said about it?

[hansangb]

I was having a conversation with coworker who was in the Air Force. I was in the Army so we have a good nature inter-service rivalry. I showed him the physical switches i was building and he immediately recognized it as AHCP. I said "How'd you know that so fast?" Turns out, he was a crew chief for A10-A in Alaska. And he told me "BTW, there's a switch in the back left that most pilots....." and I jumped in with "you mean the Armament Ground Safety Override Switch?"

 

And he looked at me kind of funny. In the A series, he said the switch was under a cubby hole and some pilots forgot it was even there. It was "sort of hidden" Not sure about the C variant, but it was interesting getting his take. He was duly impressed how accurate DCS was.

[WildBillKelsoe]

remarkable stuff. thanks for sharing