Why is refueling in simulators so hard?

[falcon00]

Refueling in DCS A-10 appears to be a hot topic. I see other threads giving advice, but I don't think it's modeled accurately. This isn't the first time I've seen this; refueling in Falcon 4.0 was like this too.

 

I get that there is a wake coming off the tanker but I don't think that receivers in the real world get thrown around by it that much. As an observer, I've flown several missions with the 190th ARW. Receivers, especially fighters, roll up, park, plug, and bounce. They are stable enough on the boom that they can take their hands off the throttle and wave to the guys in the pod. See video [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tRzDse5h7Y]here[/ame].

 

At night and in bad weather I can see it being hard but on a good day, it's just normal formation flight.

[Kelevra9987]

Look, in Sims we dont have that Ass-Meter to feel what the plane is doing. And as the Retired A-10 Pilot said: It actually is hard to refuel in the air.

 

So I thin because the lack of 3D Vision and feeling the Movement in the Air it is even harder for us simmer zo AAR.

 

Just my two cents here...

[Eddie]

When you've had enough practice, it's not that hard in DCS (or Falcon) either.

 

The trouble is that many simmers expect to practice for a few hours and be able to do like they see in YouTube videos. In fact it can take several hundred hours of formation flying and air refuelling to truly master the skills.

[Aginor]

I read somewhere a boom operator said the DCSW tanker crews are not as cooperative as they would be in real life. I wonder if a few changes in AI for the tankers could help a bit.

 

EDIT: Also tanking is much more easier if you

- can see in 3D

- have peripheral vision

we lack both of those in DCSW.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Aginor

[jcbak]

Recently during the interview with the real world A10 pilot, I asked about refueling and he stated that it was very difficult in real life as well. True, simmers need to deal with no physical sensations and lack of depth....but, we can't die and/or kill others as well.

[PiedDroit]

I think I read somewhere from the VR users that AAR was indeed much easier, as well as formation flying.

Can anyone confirm?

[Gliptal]

Aren't the tankers in the sim too slow as well?

 

Besides, it looks easy because they train for hundred of hours, like Eddie said. And it's not impossible in the sim either to find a position where you can take your hands off the stick and throttle for a couple of seconds (this is especially true for the throttle): it happened to me once or twice. You just need the perfect combination of trim, power setting, and the AI not acting like idiots (i.e. let me suddenly gain 50 feet for no reason).

 

Apart from the obvious seat in the pants, peripheral vision and depth perception, maybe the sim doesn't model some of the forces that would keep the boom and the aircraft in a stable position. Maybe some pressure stuff with the receiver.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Gliptal

[Vitormouraa]

AAR is hard for those that, don't have practice. To do AAR you need hours trying, hours training. It's not simple as you think. "Let's do it here.." No, it's not, you need preparation, practice to do. When you learn how to do Air to Air Refueling you can do it even at night without the NVG, It's pretty easy when you have 50-100 hours of AAR. My tip is, practice and read the manual to know how to do AAR, don't let us see you doing AAR with Master Arm and GUN PAC on.. I have a video about it, but it's not in english, if it was, I would send you.

[Cik]

it's easier in falcon, IMO.

 

something about the warthog's nose port, the visibility, the aerodynamic effect of the port being open and the low speed you have to do it at make it much harder.

 

in the falcon you don't get any aerodynamic effects (port is in the spine behind the cockpit so shielded from airflow mostly) and you're hitting tankers at 320~ or so KN which makes it easier.

 

falcon is generally more stable too.

 

in DCS it's way worse than in falcon, i can't really tell you if that's realistic but my guess is probably yes.

 

to be honest though, A10 simply doesn't need tankers that often. unless you are going to be flying for over 2 hours you can do pretty much any mission i've ever flown with 100% fuel. if you are skimping on the fuel to bring more weapons, you should consider simply bringing more warthogs and more fuel.

 

tl;dr mostly it's not necessary, though it's harder than in the F-16 for many reasons. generally i find hitting tankers in the falcon is both much easier and much more necessary.

[Cik]

just saying, it's hard in DCS because of the way the plane works out (aerodynamic problems with nose port, low airspeed refuel etc) rather than because it's much harder than it should be.

 

even then, it's not like it's impossible. you just need a good stick and good formation flying skills.

 

i've done it a few times, though it took me longer than it probably should have.

[Eddie]

Aren't the tankers in the sim too slow as well?

 

That all depends on the mission designer. I've never played any DCS single player missions, or community multiplayer missions so can't say for sure. But it certainly seems from comments I see on various forums that they are generally set at too low a speed.

 

The AAR speed for the A-10 is 220 KIAS.

[Vitormouraa]

That all depends on the mission designer. I've never played any DCS single player missions, or community multiplayer missions so can't say for sure. But it certainly seems from comments I see on various forums that they are generally set at too low a speed.

 

The AAR speed for the A-10 is 220 KIAS.

 

You're are right Eddie. The Speed is around 220 KIAS, it's pretty easy to do it at this speed. I particulary do AAR around 220. Can I ask you a question? you said you've never played any single player mission. Don't you play DCS?

[hansangb]

I think I read somewhere from the VR users that AAR was indeed much easier, as well as formation flying.

Can anyone confirm?

 

I haven't done any refueling yet, but formation flying, flying NOE, landing are *all* easier with Rift. It's remarkable how much 3D sensation can make things so much easier.

[Socket7]

It took me many hours of practice to realize I was several meters too high, and chasing the boom. If you think you are "RIGHT THERE!!!!!" and you're getting no love from the boom operator, you're too high.

 

It got a lot easier once i was in the right place. Light a switch flicking.

[Gliptal]

That all depends on the mission designer. I've never played any DCS single player missions, or community multiplayer missions so can't say for sure. But it certainly seems from comments I see on various forums that they are generally set at too low a speed.

 

The AAR speed for the A-10 is 220 KIAS.

Actually, from what I know the mission designers can only set the loitering speed of the tanker. Whatever that is, as soon as you request to refuel it slows down to about 178 knots.

 

If there actually is a variable somewhere that controls this behaviour please let me know!

[PiedDroit]

I haven't done any refueling yet, but formation flying, flying NOE, landing are *all* easier with Rift. It's remarkable how much 3D sensation can make things so much easier.

Thanks! I suppose that since AAR is similar to formation flying it should be as much easier then.

[Eddie]

Actually, from what I know the mission designers can only set the loitering speed of the tanker. Whatever that is, as soon as you request to refuel it slows down to about 178 knots.

 

If there actually is a variable somewhere that controls this behaviour please let me know!

 

You certainly can control the refuelling speed. It's taken from the waypoint speed set in the editor.

[Gliptal]

You certainly can control the refuelling speed. It's taken from the waypoint speed set in the editor.

Thanks, I'll be sure to let at least one mission designer know.

[Enduro14]

once you get it down its easy, also its really easy in the rift or in 3d depth is key and those two methods of flying in the sim rock for that task.

[Thick8]

once you get it down its easy, also its really easy in the rift or in 3d depth is key and those two methods of flying in the sim rock for that task.

3D does make a big difference. I used to do Falcon and FSX in 3D. Everything was easier.

 

Oh yea, after 60 or 70 times it gets much easier. Don't watch the boom. look into the distance. If you focus on the boom you're going to start chasing it and you will fail.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Thick8

[codefox]

3D does make a big difference. I used to do Falcon and FSX in 3D. Everything was easier.

 

Oh yea, after 60 or 70 times it gets much easier. Don't watch the boom. look into the distance. If you focus on the boom you're going to start chasing it and you will fail.

 

What helped me much with refueling the A-10C was looking up to the tanker as soon as it connected. Just keep both wingtips in your sight and follow them without moving around too much. TrackIR helps much.

 

In my opinion refueling the F-15 is way easier since you don't have the boom infront of your face. I can refuel the F-15 while drinking coffee and eating my breakfast but I can't do so in the A-10, it's getting way better lately though.

[SkateZilla]

I just fly formation and use the trim to move around and in slowly and allow the boom operator to hook up.

[falcon00]

"I read somewhere a boom operator said the DCSW tanker crews are not as cooperative as they would be in real life."

 

HA! I'd agree with that. So many times I've sat there with the boom literally inches away shouting PLUG AHOLE!!

 

I don't have a problem with chasing the boom. My issue is I get stabilized and walk it in one of two things happens. PIO as I try to correct for being thrown up or down which is a viscous cycle OR I get thrown to one side. As a guy that regularly flies in the wake of other aircraft, I can tell you that this isn't what happens. It's bumpy but you don't just get thrown around to the point where you suddenly start gaining altitude with no stick input.

[Steel Jaw]

As a long time Falcon flier, honestly, I think the DCS aar is unrealistically difficult.

[AtaliaA1]

As a long time Falcon flier, honestly, I think the DCS aar is unrealistically difficult.

 

 

There was a Real Life Pilot, who would fake an error in his instruments in order to avoid AAR. It's in one of the many great books on the A10 I have read but can't remember which one at the moment.

 

So it is quite difficult, with other pilots mentioning how it would increase their heart rates, give them the sweats and such.