USSR missile firing doctrine

[ametzeala]

Hello!

I have read that russian interceptor pilots where trained to fire 2 missiles at a time,1 IR followed by one radar guided.I tried doing the same thing in the mig 21 in dcs and i was not succesful.Can someone confirm if this was/is possible or not in the mig-21 bis?Thank you.

[Chrinik]

They typically carried an IR and a Radar version of each missle and used them in conjunction so that both had a higher chance of canceling countermeassures.

In the "how to be able to do it in MiG-21" you fist need to accuire Radar Lock and be behind your target. Switch to your IR missle and wait for positive lock, fire, then switch to the Radar missle and fire it.

 

I don´t know why it would be hard to do so in the MiG-21...unless of course you are trying to use salvo-fire...with different weapons equipped, Salvofire doesn´t work.

[WinterH]

Lets suppose you have a R-3R in pylon 1 and an IR missile in pylon two.

 

First, weapon selector should be in AA 1-2 position.

 

As it is currently implemented, you need to flip IR / SAR switch to appropriate position before firing either type of missile, so this may be a reason.

 

Also, obviously you would need to have locked the target with radar for SARH missile, and should be in the rear hemisphere of target for IR missile to pick it up with majority of the IR missiles MiG have.

 

Lots of switch throwing and quite the wonky business to be honest :D.

[Hadwell]

I think you'd fire 1 and 4 since the inside two were more set up for the r55 and r13 and the outer two were more for the sarh varients.

 

How I do it online, I fire an r3r on the merge and then as soon as I get tone I fire an IR missile, I would assume firing two of the same type of missile ups the chance for a hit a lot, and that would be why there are 1-2, 3-4 selectors

Edited February 15, 2016 by Hadwell

[PE_Tigar]

I think you'd fire 1 and 4 since the inside two were more set up for the r55 and r13 and the outer two were more for the sarh varients.

 

How I do it online, I fire an r3r on the merge and then as soon as I get tone I fire an IR missile, I would assume firing two of the same type of missile ups the chance for a hit a lot, and that would be why there are 1-2, 3-4 selectors

 

1-2 positions are the inner pylons, 3-4 outer ones - the weapon station numbering logic is different from common sense.

 

Anyway, yes, the tactic was used in real life, IR+Radar shot, what you'd need to do would be:

 

Lock up the target (rear aspect)

Wait for the IR tone

Fire IR missile

Switch missile mode to Radar (RNS) mode

Switch Weapon selector to appropriate position

Fire radar missile

 

Finally, firing two of the same kind simultaneously does nothing. If you fire one at the longest possible range, and then one at half range, that's a different story.

[Hadwell]

why would you fire a IR missile first?

 

the radar guided missiles are the only really all aspect missiles the mig has, wouldn't it be better to fire a radar guided missile first?

 

I thought the whole point of them is that you didn't need to be behind, with a IR lock, in order to fire, so as you're approaching your enemy, not yet behind him with an IR lock, you fire a SARH, and if it misses, then you go behind and go for an IR lock.

 

just doesn't make sense at all to go through the expense of making a radar guided missile if you're just going to use it like an IR missile... (yes I know what flares are)

 

and firing multiple missiles does increase the chances for a hit, if you switch to 1-2 and hold the trigger down, it fires both, the 2nd maybe 2 seconds after the first, that 2 seconds can make all the difference, assuming you're firing both from within params to begin with.

 

I know the Vietnamese used to just fire missiles going full speed from the side or nearly head-on, then bug out, because they didn't want to lose any of their migs in dogfights.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Hadwell

[Cik]

there's no reason to ripple missiles in the MIG, afaik the philosophy you were talking about was more for frontal approaches with more capable missiles than the 21 has, like the AA-7 apex and AA-10 alamo.

 

with the mig, either you are approaching in the frontal quarter, and thus there is no real point in firing heatseekers, or you are approaching in rear quarter and there is no reason to give away the fact that you are firing with a radar.

 

there is a small exception, that of firing against a defending target, in which case firing radar/heat might be useful, especially as the R-3R is actually a pretty decent missile.

 

the vietnam strategy was just to approach fast and low and then do a bellyshoot and then exit the fight, and in the MIG it's a fairly wise strategy; you are too vulnerable in an extended dogfight, as the MIG isn't that maneuverable and loses energy fast after the second turn or so.

 

play guardians of the caucasus and you'll see what i'm talking about; the best strategy is to run high and fast in from the side, spray missiles into the NATO formation and then exit the fight at mach 2. sticking around to knife fight it out with them is simply too risky unless you have a huge numbers advantage.

[Beamscanner]

The reason the ruskies fire the IR missile first, is because it's likely that the IR missile would follow the trail of the SARH missile instead of its intended target.

 

Why is that a problem you may ask? because the SARH missile can be tricked into following illuminated chaff, or some other form of decoy, instead of the target.

 

Though, I've become skeptical about this still being part of their doctrine.. I think their modern doctrine involves keeping their radar off, and going for completely passive shots with the AA-10E/F(RF homing) and then once closer in with the AA-10B/D(IR Homing). All being queued by the IADS+datalink.

 

Airborne and ground based jammers would be utilized to distort the opponents radar picture and help close the range gap of their air to air missiles.

[pepin1234]

Also when you do that, is better have the IR missile on the air just before the enemy receive the guided warning of SARH in his RWR. You secure a kill for sure.

 

Other ways with the SARH only or first you take the risk the enemy go into defense move.

[some1]

I'm not even sure the MiG-21 was capable of firing mixed missile pairs, it's not mentioned in the weapons manual.

[slundal]

Is it possible to fire a SAHR missile first then have the IR missile lock on to that and they both go to target?

[Luzifer]

Is it possible to fire a SAHR missile first then have the IR missile lock on to that and they both go to target?

 

That would kind of miss the point. If the SARH missile hits, you already hit the target. If it misses, the IR will miss too.

[Cik]

you don't need to, just flick the selector in between launches.

 

like i said, there's no real compelling reason to do so, but you can easily fire a mixed bag of missiles if you really want to.

[slundal]

That would kind of miss the point. If the SARH missile hits, you already hit the target. If it misses, the IR will miss too.

 

Once the solid fuel runs out the IR missile should loose lock on the missile fairly soon since the SARH missile should cool down quite rapidly. I was thinking that you could use it to drag the IR missile close enough so it would lock on to the same target with its heat seeker. If you loose the radar lock or have to go defensive it might increase the chance for a kill anyway.

 

Well it is just a theory. :music_whistling:

[Sierra99]

The reason the ruskies fire the IR missile first, is because it's likely that the IR missile would follow the trail of the SARH missile instead of its intended target.

 

Why is that a problem you may ask? because the SARH missile can be tricked into following illuminated chaff, or some other form of decoy, instead of the target.

 

Though, I've become skeptical about this still being part of their doctrine.. I think their modern doctrine involves keeping their radar off, and going for completely passive shots with the AA-10E/F(RF homing) and then once closer in with the AA-10B/D(IR Homing). All being queued by the IADS+datalink.

 

Airborne and ground based jammers would be utilized to distort the opponents radar picture and help close the range gap of their air to air missiles.

 

I wonder if they were exploiting a deficency of the counter measures system? I "think" the countermeasures system prioritizes threats and dispenses countermeasures accordingly. Perhaps firing 2 in rapid succession caused the CM to Stop or NOT dispense a flare for the first missile because it might determined the radar missile was a greater threat?

 

Just a thought. Interesting discussion.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Sierra99

[Rounin]

I'm not even sure the MiG-21 was capable of firing mixed missile pairs, it's not mentioned in the weapons manual.

 

Of course it was.

If you read the relevant manual pages you'll see that to fire mixed missiles you shouldn't even need to switch to different stations or modes (this is the most important bit). Those only define priorities.

 

https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.com/view.php?id=81

http://www.avialogs.com/en/aircraft/ussr/mikoyangurevitch/mig-21/mig-21bis-pilot-s-flight-operating-instructions.html

Top of page 163 (169)

[some1]

In case you haven't noticed, I made the bugreport you've just linked.

 

Look at the table - all combinations there are symmetrical payloads, no mixed pairs. Same in the english manual, firing mixed pairs is not mentioned anywhere. The missile selection system is automatic but not electronic, so assymetric payloads might not even be supported.

 

Of course you could lock the target and fire IR missile followed by radar guided missile, but you can't fire both at once using the 1-2 or 3-4 selection.

[Rounin]

but you can't fire both at once

 

My bad, I assumed you meant in quick succession, not at once. (Opening post and the whole thread was about that and the way it can be done in game after all.)

[fable2omg]

I know the PVO used to shoot two missiles during an interception, I'm talking about the Su-15 with two R-8 missiles, one infrared and one radar on the outer pylons, but that's the PVO, perhaps the information we're getting is confusing the two? Dogfights are much more fluid than interceptions, I doubt the VVS had a missile doctrine for those. But honestly, I'm not aware of any tactics for the VVS, aside from the LABS maneuver to drop nuclear warheads.

Cik's post here may confirm my theory, that dogfights are too fluid to have a missile doctrine.

[cardboard_man]

Yea you are right, i think i have only really heard of it being used in reference to PVO strany, whether the VVS did that very often i am not sure.

Edited February 22, 2016 by cardboard_man